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Old June 14, 2018, 15:27   #41
fph
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I like the glyph idea. Another thematic name for them would be "altar".

We should make sure that they are expensive enough to cast that priests don't end up spamming them too often. I still remember the ridiculously unbalanced "sea of glyphs" of Tome 2.3 rune magic...
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Old June 14, 2018, 15:43   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huqhox View Post
The whole priests not using edged weapons is yet another hangover from D&D
I like this phrase. I'm sure D&D has been the cause of many a hangover.

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Originally Posted by fph
I like the glyph idea. Another thematic name for them would be "altar".

We should make sure that they are expensive enough to cast that priests don't end up spamming them too often. I still remember the ridiculously unbalanced "sea of glyphs" of Tome 2.3 rune magic...
That's why I suggested only being able to have one glyph active at a time. Glyph of Warding is only not spammable because it's expensive and a late-game spell; you can't really have an "expensive" spell that's still usable in the early game, without it becoming cheap by endgame*. So some limitation other than cost would need to be used to make early-game glyphs not spammable.

* I guess you could make the spell cost a percentage of max SP. But what's the point of increasing max SP then?
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Old June 14, 2018, 22:25   #43
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It's not clear to me why we need to replace the pointy penalty with something else. Just remove it and figure out what the priest class wants to be interesting, and work towards it. You can probably do a lot with just manipulating the spells.
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Old June 15, 2018, 23:36   #44
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This is brilliant, thanks everybody. I'll give a brief summary of my current thinking; I'm currently intending to do individual threads for each new (or altered) class and how I think they should be further changed over the next while.

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Class penalties, and class buffs, should be used in line with how classes are designed to be played, and they should play a role in encouraging the player to adopt this playstyle. To this effect, we should start with the class design first and foremost, before jumping into thematic class restrictions.
That's a nice summary, and almost exactly where I'm at. I tend to think of it in terms of what they represent rather than how they are to be played, but in practice it comes down to more or less the same thing.

So I think the pointy penalty and the glove penalty can just go. They're more annoyances than a meaningful balance mechanisms, and they don't really contribute to the ethos of any of the classes they affect.

On the other hand, I think the light penalty for necromancers (which has the same effect as the pointy penalty if the player is on a lit square) does work, emphasising the necro's affinity for darkness and fear/hatred of light.

A couple of other comments:
Djbanete - thanks for all those ideas. Note that this is change from the class/magic branch, so rogues and rangers are already looking more distinct.

Derakon - re the glyphs, FAangband already has this Mages in FA have a final book which is runes, which can be placed for various player effects; your suggestions are kind of a combination of this idea with monster traps. I think it's an idea worth keeping in mind and developing (note that new rangers now get a decoy spell, which is kind of a glyph), but in hindsight the runes weren't really a big win in FA.
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Old June 16, 2018, 03:41   #45
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Derakon - re the glyphs, FAangband already has this Mages in FA have a final book which is runes, which can be placed for various player effects; your suggestions are kind of a combination of this idea with monster traps. I think it's an idea worth keeping in mind and developing (note that new rangers now get a decoy spell, which is kind of a glyph), but in hindsight the runes weren't really a big win in FA.
Naturally. By "final book" it sounds like you mean this was the deepest/rarest book, though? Which would make it less of a defining class feature since you wouldn't have access to its spells for much of the game. I mean, most people probably wouldn't say that being able to cast Banish is a defining class feature for the current vanilla mage, even though it is a very handy and powerful ability once you get it.

I guess I envisioned a glyph-based priest as getting new glyphs periodically throughout the game, having 1-2 glyphs per spellbook that would gradually get more powerful / less-niche effects and enable the priest to take on more dangerous enemies. It's more or less a more flavorful way to have a class that's bad at almost everything until they cast a spell that makes them great at one thing.

You could also go the Sil route (or the ToME 2 bard route, etc.) and have prayers be continually-cast spells that gradually deplete the player's SP in exchange for effects.

At any rate, I'm glad these discussions are stimulating.
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Old June 16, 2018, 09:06   #46
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I just hope you are going to keep the 4.1.2 release on the main download page so people can choose to play classic angband instead of new angband. I feel the changes have been too radical a departure from what the game was for all these years.

Realistically, acid bolt is how a mage deals with 90% of his problems.
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Old June 16, 2018, 12:08   #47
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Realistically, acid bolt is how a mage deals with 90% of his problems.
A *real* mage faces Morgoth with only magic missile and relies on regeneration to replenish his mana, not on some pansy wussy restore mana potions.

Kids, these days.
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Old June 16, 2018, 15:05   #48
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Originally Posted by grodrigues View Post
A *real* mage faces Morgoth with only magic missile and relies on regeneration to replenish his mana, not on some pansy wussy restore mana potions.

Kids, these days.
If you're using only magic missile to deal damage, then you won't have any mana woes, because you'll be naturally recovering more than 1SP/turn.

That said, you may have trouble overcoming Morgoth's innate regeneration...
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Old June 16, 2018, 17:03   #49
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I just hope you are going to keep the 4.1.2 release on the main download page so people can choose to play classic angband instead of new angband. I feel the changes have been too radical a departure from what the game was for all these years.
I think this is a serious issue and would also like to know what's planned for the future. I'm all for the introduction of new classes, but I'm concerned that some of the old ones may have been changed too dramatically for this to feel like dear old Vanilla. Some fun and perfectly good playstyles may have got lost.
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Old June 16, 2018, 23:44   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
I think this is a serious issue and would also like to know what's planned for the future. I'm all for the introduction of new classes, but I'm concerned that some of the old ones may have been changed too dramatically for this to feel like dear old Vanilla. Some fun and perfectly good playstyles may have got lost.
OK, a couple of things to say here.
  1. The new classes are still developing, and I am listening to feedback. My thrust in developing them so far has been to clarify the magic system so it's a bit more coherent (and so new classes can be more easily added in a sensible way), and to try and reduce the "I have to carry this book just for this one spell" problem. Both of these will mean a bit of a change to the feel of classes, but I'm trying not to change wholesale or eliminate playstyles.
  2. When I first started playing the latest version was 3.0.3 (I know, that makes me a n00b for a lot of people). At that time, there were people on the newsgroup complaining about not only how the current version had ruined the game, but how 2.9.1 had, and how 2.8.3 had, and so on. If there is one thing that is traditional about Angband, it is that it is constantly changing; on the other hand, if you go back and play 2.6.1, you'll find it still recognisably Angband.
So, the game will change. Some changes not everyone will like. I'm trying to use my experience plus the massive experience of the community to change in ways that are positive - keep me honest.
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