The Hardest part of Angband

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by quarague

I know that asymmetric LOS exists, but I never bothered to figure out when exaclty I have it and when the monster benefits. It seems more like a bug than a feature to me anyways.

IMO this is a feature:

   #.#
####x#
..@..#
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and this is a bug:

   ##x#
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..@..#
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Latter is "hockey stick", you can target the monster and not even see it. Not sure if that still exist in 3.5, I don't use it because it makes killing stuff really easy, especially if you combine that with runes.

First one is something that is helpful, but not overpowering, just a tactic that veteran players use. There must be something that makes game easier to experienced player than complete newbie anyways. IMO there should be more of these kind of "tricks" that you can use.

[Bogatyr]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

Yes. It tells you all there is to know about monster with one caveat, it doesn't tell you directly how much damage monster can do until you have actually killed one of them (it should though, if it can tell you monster HP it should also give you direct info about it's damage capability, especially for breath-attacks). You basically get full monster info after probing and then killing one.

My stack of rods of probing is one of my absolutely most prized possessions. I use it every single time I encounter a monster where I don't have full knowledge, then juggle my resistances or just bail if I decide I don't want to face the attacks (especially lower experience/lower stat), or make sure I stay far away and just shoot bolts at it.

[Mondkalb]

Originally Posted by Mark

Ah, that's awesome to know. I have probed but didn't realise it gave more information than the messages about hitpoints.

I remember that I fell for the same misunderstanding, driven by the simple game message "foe x has yz hitpoints, that's all".
I found it not very helpful and was wondering why rods of probing might be such a late and high prized item, until I finally discovered that you get much more information about the monster, only the game doesn't tell you so.

Probably the message should be a little bit more informative?

[PowerWyrm]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

Latter is "hockey stick", you can target the monster and not even see it. Not sure if that still exist in 3.5, I don't use it because it makes killing stuff really easy, especially if you combine that with runes.

All LOS tricks are gone in 3.5 except the chess knight move. If you can see something, it can see you.

[buzzkill]

Originally Posted by Mondkalb

I remember that I fell for the same misunderstanding, driven by the simple game message "foe x has yz hitpoints, that's all".
I found it not very helpful and was wondering why rods of probing might be such a late and high prized item, until I finally discovered that you get much more information about the monster, only the game doesn't tell you so.

Probably the message should be a little bit more informative?

I too have groaned about this, long ago. The message incorrectly states that all you've learned is the number of HP's, "that's all". It's worse than simple bad messaging, it's a bug.

[Derakon]

Probing used to only tell you the monster's current HP, with no effect on monster memory whatsoever. This was in the days when there was no monster HP bar; monsters just had a little textual description when you 'l'ooked at them (e.g. "unhurt", "slightly injured", "almost dead").

How about the message being "You learn about the X. The X has Y hitpoints" when probing has an effect on your monster memory, and just "The X has Y hitpoints" when it doesn't? The latter case comes up when you probe the same monster twice (or a group of monsters).

Also the "That's all" should be done away with.

[AnonymousHero]

Originally Posted by Derakon

Probing used to only tell you the monster's current HP, with no effect on monster memory whatsoever. This was in the days when there was no monster HP bar; monsters just had a little textual description when you 'l'ooked at them (e.g. "unhurt", "slightly injured", "almost dead").

How about the message being "You learn about the X. The X has Y hitpoints" when probing has an effect on your monster memory, and just "The X has Y hitpoints" when it doesn't? The latter case comes up when you probe the same monster twice (or a group of monsters).

Also the "That's all" should be done away with.

+1, but I'd go even further and popping up the recall info immediately too -- if someone can come up with a sensible idea for how to handle multiple monsters .

[Mondkalb]

Originally Posted by AnonymousHero

+1, but I'd go even further and popping up the recall info immediately too -- if someone can come up with a sensible idea for how to handle multiple monsters .

Well, there could be a list like they already exist for inventory/equipment/spellbooks/items on the ground, and you get to choose a monst from it.

[dhegler]

Originally Posted by quarague

One can definitely win without properly learning how this works (I have multiple times). I know that asymmetric LOS exists, but I never bothered to figure out when exaclty I have it and when the monster benefits. It seems more like a bug than a feature to me anyways.

This is probably the best comment yet... To rely on asymmetric LoS for anything in the game seems "cheap". Not that I don't do it at times, but for help not to die, you need to rely on what several consider a "cheap" tactic, what are you really accomplishing. I have played these games back to the original Hack years ago. I just had a lv 33 or so gnome mage take one shot of water from Gorlim and die, after I figured he didn't have horrible attacks. I had all resists except maybe nether, sound and something else, so figured I was safe. How was I to know he could take me down in one single "unresistable" attack.

Also, when looking at monster spoilers here, everything appears to be from Angband 3.1.2 (I think)... Any chance that can be updated? Or somehow load 3.4/3.5 monster data into it, as you would a variant? I try not to use it, but end up referencing it every so often...

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by dhegler

I just had a lv 33 or so gnome mage take one shot of water from Gorlim and die, after I figured he didn't have horrible attacks. I had all resists except maybe nether, sound and something else, so figured I was safe. How was I to know he could take me down in one single "unresistable" attack.

A level-33 gnome mage has, what, 150 HP? Damned near everything can kill you in one hit when you're that fragile. As it happens, Gorlim is one of those "way more dangerous than he looks" uniques (along with Kavlax, the Phoenix, the Tarrasque, etc.), since he spams hugely damaging attack spells: cause critical wounds, mana bolt, and water bolt. I'm pretty sure any one of those could one-hit-kill a character with 150 HP, and none of them can be resisted (you can save against cause-critical, but that's all or nothing).

As for how you were supposed to know, either probing or turning on the "know full monster memory" cheat option, which IMO is not a cheat option at all.

Finally, regarding asymmetric LOS: I don't abuse it any more than the monsters do. Which is to say, I try to set up fights so that I'm the one doing the hockeysticking, not the monsters; it's functionally impossible to have it such that neither of us can get hockeysticked without digging an antisummoning corridor.