Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 6, 2014, 18:48   #11
bio_hazard
Knight
 
bio_hazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 627
bio_hazard is on a distinguished road
This idea would be a big departure from how Angband works, but for a lot of humanoid monsters you could give them equipment instead of abilities. Then they could drop said equipment when they die. Either give any monster a chance to carry something and/or give e.g. orc captains a chance to wield magical items. For egos, you could try to make it somewhat thematic so orcs weren't carrying westernesse weapons.

I like this because it is a more transparent way to make monsters more interesting, but it informs the player about risk-reward of tackling said monster. In the description we could add at the end "It's plate armor/sword/leather boots shimmers with magical energy" or for a mage "It grips a wand".

(This is more or less how Crawl does it. Can be hard on low level characters to encounter an otherwise weak monster with a hard-hitting wand or weapon, but ego items are usually visible on the sprites and most of the time you can survive more than one round and run away if need be)
bio_hazard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6, 2014, 18:56   #12
mrrstark
Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 101
mrrstark is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Some of my friends play ToME4, and a common complaint is that you basically just steamroll through the dungeon until one of the ego-monsters happens to randomly get a ridiculously overpowered set of abilities, at which point it steamrolls you. Even though the player has perfect monster knowledge in that game, it's not reasonable for the player to check every single monster's ability sets because there's so many monsters.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bio_hazard
In the description we could add at the end "It's plate armor/sword/leather boots shimmers with magical energy" or for a mage "It grips a wand".
Same problem as Tome4, you have to 'l'ook at every monster description to figure out whether this instance is a normal steamroll monster, or one that is an ego and going to one-shot you now.

Basically, you need to figure out a way to maintain the ability to easily read monsters. New Glyphs, colors, particle effects, w/e would need to be paired with this change to make this happen.
mrrstark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6, 2014, 20:05   #13
Carnivean
Knight
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 527
Carnivean is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bio_hazard View Post
This idea would be a big departure from how Angband works, but for a lot of humanoid monsters you could give them equipment instead of abilities. Then they could drop said equipment when they die. Either give any monster a chance to carry something and/or give e.g. orc captains a chance to wield magical items. For egos, you could try to make it somewhat thematic so orcs weren't carrying westernesse weapons.

I like this because it is a more transparent way to make monsters more interesting, but it informs the player about risk-reward of tackling said monster. In the description we could add at the end "It's plate armor/sword/leather boots shimmers with magical energy" or for a mage "It grips a wand".

(This is more or less how Crawl does it. Can be hard on low level characters to encounter an otherwise weak monster with a hard-hitting wand or weapon, but ego items are usually visible on the sprites and most of the time you can survive more than one round and run away if need be)
I like this idea. You wouldn't have to do too much to implement it for the player to see. You either make it all so all higher level monsters are like this, like Orc Captains, or you make it a random member of the class, but highlight it in a different way, or you could message the player with a "feeling" style message on LOS.

Highlighting could be a different colour. Purple means unique in ascii. Red in the monster list means out of depth. Just change the colour in the listing or the ascii or both. Not sure if you'd want a different tile for us tile players.

Higher class monsters from a base are more dangerous anyway. Orc Captains are tougher and deal more damage. Wolf Chieftains cast spells (which is more of a surprise really). It would be logical that they got to their position by having better equipment.

A side thought to that would be that every equipment carrying monster drops their equipment. Soldiers and Paladins could drop swords and armour, and the deeper they've made it down the better the equipment. Probably wouldn't take the past {magical} level, but they could be using shortswords in shallower levels but katanas, broadswords or zweihanders at lower levels. They're meant to be bands of adventurers (now that they are bands) like our character, so surely they've been picking up stuff as they go?
Carnivean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7, 2014, 00:53   #14
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,023
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Derakon's correct in the main drawback to Tome. It also suffers from the "too much stuff" problem, so it's hard to ID how dangerous an attack is on sight unless you are familiar with it. And to get to that knowledge, you actually need quite a few clicks. Careful players will check out all rares, but it's painful. I think TOME would do better with more powerful rares that are much less frequent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
A side thought to that would be that every equipment carrying monster drops their equipment. Soldiers and Paladins could drop swords and armour, and the deeper they've made it down the better the equipment. Probably wouldn't take the past {magical} level, but they could be using shortswords in shallower levels but katanas, broadswords or zweihanders at lower levels. They're meant to be bands of adventurers (now that they are bands) like our character, so surely they've been picking up stuff as they go?
We have a step up on Crawl on this since we have squelch and Crawl doesn't. (Crawl does have a nice search option, but it doesn't stop the dungeon littered with crap problem) We've also already begun this with drop profiles. Mages and Priests will drop spellbooks more frequently. A step up would be to "equalize" the spell books so that enemy spells and player spells are the same, then you could have casters know some number of spells from the book they have. (we'd obviously have to eliminate or rework some spells like WoD and banishment, at least until we introduce friendly monsters)

This is a lot of work though. I do agree that if we go with weapons for monsters we need to make sure that we do make things somewhat easy to determine and that we don't have scruffy hobbit + wand of death situations.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7, 2014, 05:51   #15
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrstark View Post
Basically, you need to figure out a way to maintain the ability to easily read monsters. New Glyphs, colors, particle effects, w/e would need to be paired with this change to make this happen.
Maybe color-code them in monster screen so that you notice that there is something off in this monster.

As I see this this is problem to make player to know what your char knows as much as to get char to know what to expect.

In any case ego-monsters would make probing really valuable.
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7, 2014, 06:41   #16
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,023
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Maybe color-code them in monster screen so that you notice that there is something off in this monster.

As I see this this is problem to make player to know what your char knows as much as to get char to know what to expect.

In any case ego-monsters would make probing really valuable.
We might want something more than just an indication that this guy is special somehow. After all ToME does do the color coding thing and it's still problematic. On the other hand, ToME has way too many possible skills that you have to look through.

We could color code based on max unresisted dpt. Maybe use the background color for this? I dunno.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7, 2014, 14:19   #17
dhegler
Adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 249
dhegler is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
I glanced at the forums and misread dhegler's post "Monster Weaknesses" as "Monsters of Westerness".

Wouldn't it be interesting if any monster (or sometimes only some species) could appear as a more powerful variant. We do that with weapons, and some combinations prove more powerful than artifacts (uniques).

Ego Monsters: (Why are ego weapons called "ego" anyway?)

of Isengard - +50% AC (Saurman and his workshops)
of Mordor - +0.5 speed (Spurred on by Sauron's dark will)
of the First Age - damage, HP, AC, attacks/round, saving throw all +20%
of Gorgoroth - has additional moderate-damage darkness breath attack (land of Ungoliants' brood)
of Moria - always can 'throw javelin for 12d6' in addition to regular attacks
of Erech - always a ghostly version that can move throw walls

....because you know, the game isn't hard enough already

On the other hand if they dropped great loot...

Naturally I'm not being serious, but it's fun to wonder
I am so glad I could spur on this discussion!

I kind of like the idea... Especially when implemented in groupings of monsters similar to how wolf chieftains and wolves are treated, or cyclops and giants, etc... The two things I like most about recent Angband dev has been groupings of monsters, whether they be p's, C's, etc... Along with the squarish monster pits and different rooms and cavern levels.
dhegler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7, 2014, 15:01   #18
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,024
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
We might want something more than just an indication that this guy is special somehow. After all ToME does do the color coding thing and it's still problematic. On the other hand, ToME has way too many possible skills that you have to look through.
ToME's display is also pretty muddy IMO -- it's hard to pull creatures away from the background. Or at least that's the feeling I get from looking at screenshots of it.

The two "obvious" approaches I can think of are tile background color and putting an accent on the monster. We could combine that with printing a special message when the monster first enters LOS ("You see an Uruk that has got berserk!"). I'm not sure what other options we have to call the player's attention to a special monster that would actually make them more likely to notice said monster.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8, 2014, 00:10   #19
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,023
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
ToME's display is also pretty muddy IMO -- it's hard to pull creatures away from the background. Or at least that's the feeling I get from looking at screenshots of it.

The two "obvious" approaches I can think of are tile background color and putting an accent on the monster. We could combine that with printing a special message when the monster first enters LOS ("You see an Uruk that has got berserk!"). I'm not sure what other options we have to call the player's attention to a special monster that would actually make them more likely to notice said monster.
ToME is muddy. There's a lot of clicks to get to what you want and then a lot of hassle figuring out what actually is dangerous until you've played the game for so long that you know what every ability is.

DCSS probably has the best system for this. For monsters that can carry items, the sprites visibly change based on what they're wielding. (this is in tiles mode, not sure what happens in ascii mode, but at this point tile mode of DCSS is so smooth and well developed, it's the default) Furthermore when they enter line of sight you are given a message about what they are and what they're wielding, "An orc appears wielding orcish leather armor and a glowing saber." I'm not sure DCSS tells you what wands/potions monsters have, and to see spells you have to examine the monster.

I'm not sure we have the wherewithal to do major sprite modification, so I don't know if this is an option for us. Though if there's a big push towards a standardized slick tiles interface like DCSS has, we should consider the desire for this. The second option tends to get lost in message spam even in DCSS where the encounter rate is much lower than in Angband.

Dwarf Fortress cycles through all items on a square, but that's an extremely ugly solution. Background colors are also ugly, IMO, but appear to be the best option we have so far.

One possible option is to have the special monsters show up differently colored in the message log (perhaps in line with reducing message spam) Uniques show up as purple, and other monsters show up differently colored based on rough estimate of danger rating. Sort of like how OoD monsters show up as red in the monster list. Except they also would be red in the message log as well. Red = most dangerous (OoD, "high" special ability), orange = dangerous ("med" special ability"), yellow = slightly dangerous ("low special ability, approximately at depth). Everything else is white.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8, 2014, 00:43   #20
mrrstark
Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 101
mrrstark is on a distinguished road
Changing the background color of the tile might be a good solution if there are a small selection of egos.

For example, Frost monster -> Blue background.

You'd be quite limited to the number of egos by the number of colors.... but it would let you immediately read two things:

1. Let you know something was different
2. Let you know what was different about it
mrrstark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ego Items Wozar Vanilla 10 June 19, 2013 00:11
Bad ego names? Tobias v4 10 March 26, 2012 17:51
uber ego items Thraalbee v4 5 March 21, 2012 22:59
[3.3] Ego/vault ratings PowerWyrm Vanilla 1 October 7, 2011 10:42
TFork idea: antimagic monsters Therem Harth ToME 4 September 11, 2010 06:32


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.