Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 13, 2011, 20:28   #11
Angelus
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 19
Angelus is on a distinguished road
I actually recently played a no-combat mage through using very few magic devices. Staves of the magi were common enough that for the big fights I simply used them. And I think I ended up with something like 15 !rmana after fighting morgoth. mostly, I play without devices because I can't be bothered to work out which ones are worthwhile and which ones aren't-but it's very doable right now. If anything, I think playing a no-combat mage (at least, a high-elf mage) is easier than playing a warrior. I killed a few less deep uniques, but other than that...
I would say that right now, magic is more powerful than melee-and ranged certainly has the capacity to be with the right bow/arrows.
Angelus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14, 2011, 14:45   #12
buzzkill
Prophet
 
buzzkill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,939
Donated: $8
buzzkill is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
Throwing--one of my goals is to try to fix the mechanic so you can have critical hits when throwing (like melee/ranged) and also so that the breakage rules make more sense.
My two cents on throwing. Throwing shouldn't be all things to all people. I'd like to see it broken down into a few basic categories, each of which will apply (effectively) to just a few race/class/stat combos.

Precise throwing : Daggers and darts in the hands of a skilled/specialized user should be highly effective at short(ish) range causing critical hits and lots of cuts/poisoning (if applicable). Misses should have a chance of causing breaking and damage to the thrown object, hits, much less so.

Heavy throwing : Boulders and swords and chests. Anything big and heavy should make a effective though clumsy missile providing you have the strength and stature to propel it. These attacks would rarely yield direct hits resulting in *big* damage, but could frequently cause some damage plus stunning, confusion, blindness. Large thrown items should frequently be damaged or destroyed.

Normal throwing : This is what we currently have and what most characters should retain. A generic throwing ability that isn't particularly useful. If you happen to fall into the precise or heavy niche, good for you, else you should probably stick to swords and bows (or spells and running away).

Useless throwing : Some things just shouldn't be throwing with any efficacy, regardless of the skill of the thrower. Pebbles, arrows, scrolls.
__________________
www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.
buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14, 2011, 17:45   #13
jens
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 348
jens is on a distinguished road
The point in starting this thread was not really that I am going to redesign combat. I'm perfectly happy to help with it, but I rather see it as a group effort ;-) I am also aware of there being other threads discussing combat, but I did not find any thread looking at the bigger picture. That is the reason for this thread. Once we have some agreement, we can start to discuss particulars in designated threads, with references to old threads were applicable.

Re: Matching player vs dungeon power curve
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
I don't agree that this is a useful invariant to work toward, and as the person interested in dungeon generation I feel free to ignore it. I don't think we have this now, and since there is (intentionally) no concept of "steady pace" we aren't balancing for it.

In my opinion the game difficulty is (and should be) a sawtooth wave pattern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawtooth_wave), where the game gets harder as you descend until you find a game-changing item (artifact, dungeon book, ring of damage, dagger +9,+9, etc) which then shoots the difficulty straight down, and you proceed.

In this model the amplitude (height) of the wave corresponds to diving speed: if you go fast, things get harder quickly but you still find incredible items that make things easier (e.g. =speed +8). If you go slow, then the wave is much flatter, and the period is also longer, because you are exploring more slowly.
If the curves are matched (on average, but vary in each case), we get precisely the sawtooth wave you describe. In our current system they are not matched for large parts of the dungeon, so there we don't get the sawtooth wave. Yes, the problem lies mostly in the dungeon not developing in the deeper levels, but that should be fixed eventually.

Re: combat modes having the same characteristics
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
I don't have any idea what this means, so I'm not sure if I agree with it.
What I meant is: Should melee, ranged, spells, and thrown have the same answers to questions like those I pose here. Maybe ranged should follow a smooth curve, while melee follows a sawtooth wave?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
One thing you missed:
- The combat algorithms should be as simple and transparent as possible.
Well I thought about including a section on that, but decided to start of with only discussing this from a player perspective :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I read this as being more a statement about the dungeon difficulty curve and the item generator. It seems more or less irrelevant to general combat mechanics overhauling.
I probably should have worded this differently, what I wanted to convey is something along the lines of the need for growth, and whether that growth should be linear, or something else. Then I realised that what the growth needs, is to match the growth in the dungeon...



Re: Combat abilities should be increased through all of clvl, stats, and eq.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
No. A strong consensus emerged in the stealth thread that Angband should lean more towards abilities being boosted by stats/equipment than by clev, to discourage grinding.
Many seem to miss that we today have a system that has, roughly, parity between these when it comes to raising combat abilities. Most of it is intermingled, so it's hard to say what is most important, but to-hit rises mostly based on clvl, and hp as well. If we do not have parity, then the sawtooth wave we want to achieve becomes too steep, and we will need to grind much more to be able to move on, so getting combat abilities from clvl is essential to avoid grinding (scenario: you are at 20 hp, and are not hitting much, so you grind along on level 4 until you find some eq that boosts your hp and DPS, then you can move on down again.) What people are afraid of when they make these statements is that all growth of combat abilities should come from clvl. This would not lead to grinding as you state, but it would lead to a very smooth, and thus boring growth curve. Grinding comes from having breakpoints, and growth from eq is much more likely to produce breakpoints than growth from clvl. To get a good sawtooth wave we need both the smooth growth, and the jumps.
jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14, 2011, 19:24   #14
Tibarius
Swordsman
 
Tibarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 49
Posts: 364
Tibarius is an unknown quantity at this point
Thank you Derakon, i was obviously wrong with some statements. Wand/stave damage can compete with spells from books (but a newbie player like myself cannot figure that out from character screen or looking at those wands).

Jens:
Quote:
...,so getting combat abilities from clvl is essential to avoid grinding
I would rather disagree, but maybe i understood something wrong again. clvl is determined by gained XP. So if i over and over kill small easy stuff (thats what i call grinding) i can accumulate enough XP to raise the level - and gain more powerfull. I would say exactly the opposite:
Getting combat abilities from clvl is the main reason for people to grind, if XP had no realtion to character-power they just wouldn't do it, except they derive fun from it.


By the way, other comments have those neat references at the beginning of their quotes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m
How to do that?

If i capsule the quoted text i hit the quote button, but that does leaves out whom the quote came from.

Cheers,
Tibarius
Tibarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14, 2011, 19:33   #15
d_m
Angband Devteam member
 
d_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Age: 38
Posts: 1,516
d_m is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
By the way, other comments have those neat references at the beginning of their quotes:

How to do that?

If i capsule the quoted text i hit the quote button, but that does leaves out whom the quote came from.
If I hit the quote button when replying to a post, it automatically quotes the entire post. I see something like QUOTE=Tibarius;57181 in brackets. I just take the parts I want to reply to from the original and paste that around them.

If you select text and choose quote I think it just puts a QUOTE tag without the username.
__________________
linux->xterm->screen->pmacs
d_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14, 2011, 19:54   #16
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,542
Derakon is on a distinguished road
You can also just insert whatever name you want, like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Spaghetti Monster
this
. The semicolon and numbers cause the bulletin board software to include a link directly to the post you're quoting.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14, 2011, 20:27   #17
jens
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 348
jens is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
I would rather disagree, but maybe i understood something wrong again. clvl is determined by gained XP. So if i over and over kill small easy stuff (thats what i call grinding) i can accumulate enough XP to raise the level - and gain more powerfull. I would say exactly the opposite:
Getting combat abilities from clvl is the main reason for people to grind, if XP had no realtion to character-power they just wouldn't do it, except they derive fun from it.
Yes, that is what people refer to when talking about grinding. But to make it clear I'll expand on it a bit:

Grinding: To repeatedly kill monsters that pose no to low risk, in order to gain a desired advantage.

In what you claim to be your preferred system (no combat abilities gained from XP) what we would get is this:
1)If we start out with numbers similar to today you'd have a warrior with say 20 hp, that after advancing to something like dlvl 5 would find that advancing any further was too dangerous, because he still has 20 hp, and it's getting harder to hit the monsters. He'll be stuck, killing the same monsters over and over again, until he gets an item that helps him enough to move on. The problem here is that staring with so low hp, you will soon find yourself at a dlvl were every monster is a deadly threat, so you cannot go deeper, so you have to grind, even if you are grinding against monsters that provide plenty of risk.
2)Lets design a better scenario. You start out with enough hp to survive for a while. Now there is more room for the RNG to provide you with equipment to get deeper, but sooner or later you will get stuck again, and need eq to advance. Since you have more hp in this scenario, you can push your luck further than before and keep on diving for a while, but since you will not develop gradually from killing monsters you will eventually reach a level were you cannot advance any more, you have to just grind along, waiting for the next eq that will help. Of course we could redesign object generation, so we would start developing more gradually from eq, but that seems to be quite contrary to what people want.


All I am saying is that the current parity between clvl, stats, and eq seems OK. Jumps in eq ensures you get a sawtooth wave, while the smoother curve from clvl helps tide you over when the RNG is unhelpful.
jens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14, 2011, 20:51   #18
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,542
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Generally speaking, major abilities imparted by equipment in the current game are all "important but not vital". You can survive without Free Action, or the base 4 resists, or massive melee damage, or an extra 200 hitpoints, and so on and so forth. It just gets riskier and riskier the more you forgo. But that's fine -- just choose an acceptable level of risk, and play at that level. This entails a certain amount of grinding for gear once you hit your risk threshold, sure, but that gear could come at any time, so there's plenty of uncertainty involved to keep you on your toes. And generally, the game's pretty good at giving you the right item at approximately the right time, so all is well. The only thing I run into trouble with on a regular basis is Free Action, which I blame on a combination of favoring rapid diving with moving to no-selling; I think I used to get my first FA source from the Black Market (as a ring of FA) in most games.

However, major abilities provided by character level are different. Specifically here I'm thinking of spells, though things like extra shots, inherent resist fear, etc. also fall into this category. If there's a spell you want to use, you have no choice but to kill monsters until you've gained enough experience to get the spell. There's no possibility of a shortcut and no uncertainty involved except that of finding the spellbook that has the spell -- and last time I played, I found most spellbooks before the spells I really wanted from those books were available.

Obviously hitpoints are a separate issue, mostly because there's such a huge inherent difference between a character at level 1 and one at level 30. However, I don't think it'd be unreasonable, as a thought experiment if nothing else, to reduce the maximum character level to 30, and require all remaining power to be gained via stat potions and equipment.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Berlios.de is taking an Easter vacation zaimoni Idle chatter 3 April 28, 2011 10:16
Taking advantage of multiple pvals Derakon Vanilla 20 January 23, 2011 14:04
Taking suggestions... Therem Harth Variants 0 December 10, 2010 18:16
bug in note taking? cinereaste Vanilla 0 August 6, 2010 18:48
[FA, O?] Combat Ghen Variants 1 July 16, 2007 20:06


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 13:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.