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Old October 12, 2007, 08:12   #11
Mondkalb
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Since I only count one winner until now I am still playing with dunadan paladin or high elf ranger. Both are obviously easier to play if still having problems to win the game.
Although it might be part of the problem. Because of their to or three blows and good CON they give a quite simple start for the game and lead to combinations of over selfconfidence and boredom - both of which are the reasons for my dead characters in 90%. ^^

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Old October 12, 2007, 08:56   #12
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Originally Posted by Mongler View Post
we're all entitled to our opinions, but to be fair, I think that's a bit too broad of a generalization. Wizards will almost always have more PW to cast spells with, and typically better at spellcasting, even in endgame, plus a Samurai can get a Yumi and some Ya for some very powerful archery, whereas Wizards aren't that great at archery. also, Gauntlets of Power interfere with the Wizard's spells.
Well, of course it's a broad generalization. Finger of Death alone is a fairly significant difference, and not all classes have proficiency in all weapons. Nonetheless, in the late game, the basic strategy is identical for most stuff - hit it with your weapon.


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somewhat true. one thing about Angband is pretty misleading for newer players, though: when I started out, I had no idea about getting multiple hits with lighter weapons when I started off.
I was making a point about balance, not noob-friendliness. I actually think that Nethack is friendlier to noobs, because there are fewer commands you need to memorize (most are in the drop-down menus).

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right, but Angband actually has a cheat menu, so it seems possible to accidentally cheat.
It's labelled "cheat," though, so you'd have to be pretty oblivious.

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I've noticed that Dunadans and High Elves seemed better despite the more exp. required, but there are some pretty viable race/class combinations, like Human Warrior for blazingly fast level gains.
I'm by no means saying that Dunadain and High Elves are the only viable classes. A lot of winners on the ladder are there to prove such a statement wrong. I'm just saying that they are among the best for every class, whereas, say, kobolds are probably not the best for any class. That suggests that the races are less balanced than the classes. It also indicates that experience alone is not an adequate penalty for stronger characters.

This is even more obvious in some of the variants. In ToME, for example, Rohanknight Vampires (with about a 300% experience penalty) are sickeningly powerful and the penalty does essentially nothing to restrict this. IMHO, the whole "stronger but slower, weaker but faster" model is a fallacy, because (with the exception of Sangband) you are essentially certain of maxing out levels eventually in any case. At most, combinations like Human Warrior allow for a small boost early on - but a Dunadan Warrior, with four blows, will overtake him very quickly even in levels as soon as he gets an enchanted dagger, because he will be able to go places the human can't. One kill of a high-level monster is worth many, many kills of low-level monsters. I've tried running human warriors; I've always abandoned them because I found that my dunadain actually levelled more quickly.

Now, none of this is necessarily a problem in itself. It is only a problem if the game attempts to be balanced. Angband (unlike ToME) does make this effort, and succeeds in many regards. It does not succeed in balancing the races, and this is a pity, because it limits the replay value. I have no interest in deliberately choosing a weaker race; if I want a restricted character, I'll return to that wishless genoless samurai I left stranded in Gehnnom a year or so ago.
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Old October 13, 2007, 01:24   #13
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Originally Posted by Parcae View Post
I was making a point about balance, not noob-friendliness. I actually think that Nethack is friendlier to noobs, because there are fewer commands you need to memorize (most are in the drop-down menus).

That's one thing Angband really needs to sort out. One of the most useful features of AngbandTk was the fact you could select a menu item and see at an instant what commands are available in the game.
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Old October 13, 2007, 07:23   #14
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That's one thing Angband really needs to sort out. One of the most useful features of AngbandTk was the fact you could select a menu item and see at an instant what commands are available in the game.
Yes, when I first found Angband (by looking for games like Nethack), I played for a few minutes and then abandoned it for a long time because it seemed so counter-intuitive. (The v key throws things ... why?) I couldn't even work out how to move diagonally. Later, when I came back to it during a vacation, it took me a couple of hours of boring memorization before I had a basic knowledge of how to move and fight, and I still haven't mastered features like macros, autosquelch etc completely.
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