Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 13, 2019, 19:45   #1
jml34
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 11
jml34 is on a distinguished road
Talking Feedback on the game (1.4.3)

Hi all!
I've been playing angband on and off for a long time, a few tens of hours here and there, then I'd come back a year later and see what's new.
The only time I've killed Morgoth was with a Mage with an invincibility spell... This time I think I'm going to seriously try to kill him again with a Half-Troll Warrior

I'm impressed by the work done to improve the game for all these years. Thanks a lot to all contributors

I have 2 main issues with the game as it is.
Issue #1 a UI that trips muscle memory
So we repeat the most useful commands lots of times, then something happens to the inventory and the key sequence is now wrong. This is especially painful with spells/prayers when an early book goes missing, or when we find the later books in the wrong order. Engraving is just a patch, not a solution: it's not beginner-friendly, doesn't work for spells, and why not just solve the problem instead? (Also number keys are harder to hit right, and for some national keyboards, numbers are shifted keys.)
Fix #1A Don't reorder the inventory
Items just keep their inventory key as long as they're there. When something is removed from the inventory, that's just a free slot. I'd probably want commands to switch inventory keys, to toggle “show inventory sorted by letter / by item order”, perhaps to resort the inventory, but even if I don't, I'd still go for it (I can still drop stuff and pick them back in the order I want).
Fix #1B Don't use inventory letters
Spells/prayers could use "handles" instead, which would be shown in the spell description. E.g. all healing stuff would use a 2-letter handle starting with "h" so “cure light wounds”, the first healing spell, would be "mha", then "phb" is “cure serious wounds” etc. Bolts coud be "b" so "mbc" or "mbf" would launch a bolt of cold/frost, but magic missiles get spammed so they should probably be assigned a 1-letter handle. Rationale: find a balance between easy to remember, and easy to type for the most used ones.
This scheme could be extended to everything: "qha" could mean "quaff a !CLW" (Inspecting the potion would tell this), "Zha" for the staff of CLW etc. Same handle everywhere, so if that's done there's no need for fix #1A. (Just do something for eating a food ration: why, just why, are my food rations not always sitting in the first food slot???)

Issue #2 limited house size
Thanks devs for everything, but NOT for making my house even smaller. Right after the early game it's always the same headache: I come back home with cool stuff I don't need now, my home is full with similarly cool stuff, and I have NO IDEA what I should throw away. I just don't want to play a resource management with partial knowledge game: I want to play a hack and slash and hoard game. I want to have all sorts of options for all my equipment slots. I want to store my arrows/bolts when I find a better crossbow/bow etc. E.g. I just found a restoration rod, and I have no idea if it works to try and get a stack of them, or not: I just wand to leave that home and see later.
So at some point I'd drop the matter, tell myself I'd think again about that later, then a year or two come to pass, then I just download the newest version of angband and start a new game... After all I like early game the most
Fix #2 Design difficulty options (with a very big house in normal difficulty)
I suggest making angband both an easier and more difficult game to win
Here's how: when I'm starting the game as a beginner, I'd first select normal difficulty, then choose from a limited selection of ready-made characters, each coming with a paragraph of advice on how this character should be played (current angband would be "custom character"—this is great but e.g. I've never played a ranger so the day I want to try that I'd just want to pick up a ready-made character, then maybe design my own character when I have experience of that class).
The game would start with a bit of lore about a top-shot character magically sending me to a far-away town because I need to go and beat Morgoth.
When I die there'd be a bit of lore about [my knowledge being sent back] my soul being magically rescued but I need to start over with a new body.
When I finally win... there'd be a bit of lore about how I didn't beat the game It was all just an illusion by that top-shot boss, to train me so that I can really go and beat Morgoth, but in reality there are no words of recall and no stairs, just holes that I may jump down through but with no way to come back up... So yeah, "real" angband would be hard mode, some ironman I guess.
tl;dr I have no idea why anyone would want to play with a limited house. Why not just directly go ironman? Cater for the less experienced players and hoarders, and provide a roadmap into the game with normal and hard modes.

Suggestions/small issues

Feelings I get the “just ignore feelings, just try to avoid dangers and dive” idea, but it'd be really nice if feelings worked! If it did, some risks would be worth it, making the game more fun.
Fix 3a: update feelings when I find stuff. I often don't know if something contributed to feelings or not.
Fix 3b: let the user tell the game what he likes to find—not really a fix but a direction for improvement. Ignore irrelevant books, ignored stuff, stuff that's worse than what I have (e.g. I already have 2 Rings of Speed on me/at home, better rings are great, otherwise I'm not interested)... For more complicated matters, hopefully when I find that some irrelevant stuff contributed to feelings, I can dig into an eval function and adjust parameters. This is basically the same as for ignoring items, except that maybe we'd want to be more precise, and when it's not ignored, we want to state how interested we are in finding it.
Fix 3c: take monsters and chests inventory into account.
Rationale: (a) if 3a–c work, then I'll often be in interesting situations. “OK I've still got a good feeling so there's stuff I want to find, it's either in this chest behind a pack of Time Hounds or on one of those painful uniques, do I go for it?” (Maybe feelings need to be adjusted when stuff is destroyed for this to work.) (b) if this somehow makes the game too easy in hard mode, just make a hard(er) mode with no feelings...

Angband as a knowledge game One of the greatest improvements was about monster memory. So now, even if I die, I still got something that will help the next character; I've never looked for a spoiler file since then. I think angband could go further in this direction.
Probing is too OP and should probably try to just tell what I want to know the most, like can it summon, and what maximum damage may it deal at most per player turn. Rationale: not knowing too much is part of the thrill of the game, so letting the player learn things the hard way is good as long as one knows enough to avoid death.
Conversely there could be rare small books written by the community that would be added to the main menu when you find them. About what resists to get at what depth, what's good to stack for a given class, what to stack to fight Morgoth, technical details about various things (some info could be taken off form the help menu) etc. (These books would present themselves as notes from past adventurers.) The guides I could find are too wordy (we only get the wisdom of any advice after we die anyway so a quick pointer is enough) or outdated; I think writers would be motivated if they know their guide will be found by players in the dungeon.

Stacking limits I'd like to tell the auto-pickup that I just want to stack 20 ?Phase Door and 4 Staffs of Teleportation etc.

Conditional ignore "ignore unless useful" E.g. I'd like to ignore stat potions only when my stat is maxed out, not drained.

Try-again command So I select a rod, select a target/direction, then fail to use the rod. I'd use a command to try again if there was any...

Artifact Museum When I discovered this game I used to dream there was a place where I could drop all my outdated artifacts, just so I could admire them again I think it doesn't matter if normal mode angband is slightly easier, so the museum could be like “Welcome Adventurer to our Artifact Museum! Although, as you can see, it's empty for now. How about you become a contributor? You'll have free entry for life, and you can pick back any artifact you leave here whenever you want. Are you in? → Great! Let me inscribe your right hand with this sigil... Done! It's attuned both to artifacts and to this place, so whenever you find an artifact in the dungeon, just activate the sigil with [the command to type] and the artifact will be sent right here!” Rationale: don't put the player in a situation where collecting artifacts conflicts with trying to win the game (you'd need to drop valuable stuff to carry back home the artifacts you found). I think teens would love this, er, and me too

Missing death throes I think you're missing a cool opportunity there. What's with a plain short "You die..." message after hours of gameplay??? Wouldn't your character have some death throes? English is not my first language but I can still come up with ”O Gods! Were the hopes you bestowed me all for naught?” or “The unjustice! The villainy! You haven't prevailed, for a stronger one will rise, your demise nigh!”. Dunno it those were any good, but you can probably find lots of good quotes and print a random one just before "You die...".
Then later you can try to program some special quotes for the appropriate death circumstances. "You look at [the low level guy who dealt you the finishing blow] and exclaim “How can it be? My fall, by a puny twerpy twig?”"

y/n questions Was this fixed? I used to have an issue with unexpected y/n questions that would pop up in the middle of a y-y-y or n-n-n movement sequence (playing roguelike; btw you could advertise angband as a great way to learn how to type without looking at the keyboard). It seems I don't get y/n questions anymore anyway, but I wanted to point out that with roguelike on y/n questions should probably be a[ye]/f[orget it] questions... or require to hit Enter.

That's it folks!
I guess it's a bit late to mention object stacks on the floor and any direction targetting, but it's probably not too late to thank for disabling selling to the shops? That was a really great move!
jml34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13, 2019, 20:01   #2
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,327
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
I feel that books should be auto-inscribed with @m1@b1...@m9@b9 as part of the default configuration data. (If you *do* inscribe them this way, you can guarantee that m1a will always be magic missile and so forth. It also lets you set up keymaps that are guaranteed to fail gracefully--say, if you aren't carrying any of book 1.)
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13, 2019, 21:25   #3
takkaria
Veteran
 
takkaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,930
Donated: $40
takkaria is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
I feel that books should be auto-inscribed with @m1@b1...@m9@b9 as part of the default configuration data. (If you *do* inscribe them this way, you can guarantee that m1a will always be magic missile and so forth. It also lets you set up keymaps that are guaranteed to fail gracefully--say, if you aren't carrying any of book 1.)
Even better, just make the spellbooks in the inventory 1-9 automatically without inscribing them... I did write a patch to do this once, I don't remember what happened to it (there was a bug I never got round to squishing I think).
__________________
takkaria whispers something about options. -more-
takkaria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13, 2019, 21:31   #4
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,327
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
I would far prefer the inscriptions so it is obvious what is happening. It is very difficult to remember which book is which when you arent carrying them all.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13, 2019, 21:46   #5
Thraalbee
Knight
 
Thraalbee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 535
Thraalbee is on a distinguished road
A lot of what you ask for is in Poslikes, e.g. Frogcomposband. Infinite home, museum ...

Repeat command exists in Angband, ctrl-v with rogue keyset. Not sure for default keyset.
Thraalbee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14, 2019, 04:35   #6
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,834
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Hello! Welcome to the forums. I have responses to some of your suggestions below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jml34 View Post
Issue #1 a UI that trips muscle memory
...
Fix #1A Don't reorder the inventory
...
Fix #1B Don't use inventory letters
Spells/prayers could use "handles" instead, which would be shown in the spell description. E.g. all healing stuff would use a 2-letter handle starting with "h" so “cure light wounds”, the first healing spell, would be "mha", then "phb" is “cure serious wounds” etc. Bolts coud be "b" so "mbc" or "mbf" would launch a bolt of cold/frost, but magic missiles get spammed so they should probably be assigned a 1-letter handle. Rationale: find a balance between easy to remember, and easy to type for the most used ones.
We had some discussion awhile back about, more or less, not tying the spellcasting UI to the spellbooks. But rather, when you'd go to cast a spell, you'd get a list of all of the spells you currently had access to (based on which books you were carrying, your level, etc.), and these spells would always have consistent "addresses". I like the idea, but it hasn't been implemented yet, mostly I think because nobody's had the right combination of enthusiasm and skill to make the necessary code changes.

Categorizing based on spell type is another possible way to handle it, and I could see doing that for consumables as well, though that feels a little strange to me.

Quote:
Issue #2 limited house size
I think you can actually change your house size (well, the size of all stores, including your house) through a config file. The UI isn't really set up well for it though. We'd need better pagination support for example.

That said, the more stuff you have in your house, the harder it is to interact with it, even if you have a good UI. There's just more stuff to look at and consider whether you need it. Angband's house may be too small but it's not healthy to keep everything either.


Quote:
Angband as a knowledge game One of the greatest improvements was about monster memory. So now, even if I die, I still got something that will help the next character; I've never looked for a spoiler file since then. I think angband could go further in this direction.
You'll get divided opinions on this. While yes, there are players that enjoy the discovery aspect of the game, it's also absolutely the case that late-game Angband resembles rocket tag, and not knowing what your opponent can do can be lethal. In short, the balance of the game is not particularly well-suited to imperfect knowledge on the part of the player. It's doable, absolutely -- otherwise we wouldn't have any winners -- but attempts to decrease player knowledge without a corresponding removal of instadeaths isn't going to sit well with many players.

Quote:
Stacking limits I'd like to tell the auto-pickup that I just want to stack 20 ?Phase Door and 4 Staffs of Teleportation etc.
Has been requested before; as above, we're waiting for someone with the right combination of interest and programming skill.

Quote:
Conditional ignore "ignore unless useful" E.g. I'd like to ignore stat potions only when my stat is maxed out, not drained.
It's not always easy to define what "useful" means. This would therefore amount to coding a bunch of heuristics into the game, and not all players would agree with all heuristics. Sounds like a bit of a nightmare to me, personally.

Quote:
Try-again command So I select a rod, select a target/direction, then fail to use the rod. I'd use a command to try again if there was any...
Try the 'n' command.

Quote:
Artifact Museum
Some variants have this! Vanilla doesn't, for whatever reason. *shrug*

Quote:
Missing death throes I think you're missing a cool opportunity there. What's with a plain short "You die..." message after hours of gameplay??? Wouldn't your character have some death throes? English is not my first language but I can still come up with ”O Gods! Were the hopes you bestowed me all for naught?” or “The unjustice! The villainy! You haven't prevailed, for a stronger one will rise, your demise nigh!”. Dunno it those were any good, but you can probably find lots of good quotes and print a random one just before "You die...".
ZAngband pioneered this. It tends to be very silly at best, though that likely has something to do with the text of the death quotes and the fact that they're also used by all speaking unique monsters. You don't really expect Mughash to spout Shakespeare when he's killed, nor for Sauron to say "He hit me for HOW MUCH?!"
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15, 2019, 20:20   #7
jml34
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 11
jml34 is on a distinguished road
Thank you for your answers!

Thanks Thraalbee for pointing Ctrl-v out. (@Derakon I already know 'n'. In fact I use it every time I go South-East ) My bad for missing this

About engraving @m1: An auto-engraving would indeed a) let me know which book I just found b) let me cast things with m1a etc.
Problem: it's a lot less comfortable to type (so sorry @takkaria I wouldn't agree too much with your patch...). Macros are fine but muscle memory is still better :P
So I thought: Hey I'll just macro ma to m1, mb to m2 etc., and I'm good! (I'd also macro my rods for my warrior: aa to a1, ab to a2 etc.)
But unless I'm wrong there are no 2-keys macros right?
Another idea would be to extend the @ syntax: @ma would mean 'a' subsumes the inventory key. I think it's not a problem if I have a rod engraved with @ar and I thus can't use some other rod sitting at the 'r' slot because 1) I wouldn't engrave @ar, but rather @aa or @ad 2) I can just engrave the other rod.

@Derakon You're probably right about conditional ignore, I can just not be lazy and unignore whatever I need right now.
I think if probe told you the max damage a monster can do (and I mean taking the current situation into account: if it chooses to breath, then take the max breath damage and assume the least damage will be resisted; similarly assume the worst-case scenario for each possible attack) and a few other things (can it summon, slow, blind, confuse...) you should know enough to avoid insta-death.
I'm aware a house with too much stuff is difficult to make sense of, but at least I'm on my own to decide when it's time to throw junk out (e.g. I finally find a great weapon and throw out 5-10 possible spares that are outperformed) so don't try to console me My warrior just swapped equipment (I found this cool ring with fire immunity + some speed + ESP, so I could wear another amulet (I had ESP) etc.) and I'm pretty sure I'd have +50 AC if I had had a bigger house (a high AC Armour of Elvenkind with the right high resist would be perfect, but I didn't keep those since I couldn't know which high resist might become relevant).
jml34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 15, 2019, 22:10   #8
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,327
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
No, you can't make 2-key macros (and you could never do so.) I recommend making a keymap for the top 2 or 3 most common attack spells, maybe phase door, and use numeric inscriptions for the others.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16, 2019, 08:33   #9
PowerWyrm
Prophet
 
PowerWyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,625
PowerWyrm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
Even better, just make the spellbooks in the inventory 1-9 automatically without inscribing them... I did write a patch to do this once, I don't remember what happened to it (there was a bug I never got round to squishing I think).
I've added this patch to PWMAngband and I don't see any bug with it...
__________________
PWMAngband variant maintainer - check http://powerwyrm.monsite-orange.fr (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!
PowerWyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 16, 2019, 17:12   #10
jml34
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 11
jml34 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
No, you can't make 2-key macros (and you could never do so.)
Of course you could, unless you mean it would be too big an effort to get the code to support this. (I have a false memory of Angband supporting this, not sure what I'm confusing Angband with.)

That said I had a quick look at the code to see if @ma-style inscriptions could be made to work, since that's what I'm really after. Comfortable typing!
It looks like this may be rather straightforward:
- add 26 more slots to the m->inscriptions array in ui-object.c (function item_menu) and fill them
- in ui_menu.c, function get_cursor_key, use that array in the case the toupper'd key.code is in 'A'-'Z'.
- in function get_tag (ui-object.c), fail the quiver and normal tag cases when the tag is not in '0'-'9'
That simple?

Well I wanted to just try, so I downloaded the 4.1.3 [EDIT fixed thanks khearn] sources and followed the instructions at http://trac.rephial.org/wiki/Compiling
It says
Quote:
If you use Unix, then the best option is to use the ./configure script. This requires a recent version of autoconf (v2.60 or later). If you have downloaded a copy of the source from the main website, it will have this included. However, if you have got the source from git you'll have to create it yourself:

$ sh autogen.sh
Unfortunately I couldn't find a configure file, nor an autogen.sh file (the find command couldn't too).
So what's with compiling 4.1.3???

Last edited by jml34; July 16, 2019 at 18:25.
jml34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for beta feedback Quirk Sil 47 December 19, 2018 10:17
Feedback on 4.0.5 from a 3.0.3 (?) player konijn_ Vanilla 11 November 18, 2016 02:49
1.2 endgame feedback debo Sil 24 January 9, 2014 14:13
[3.4.0] feedback Estie Vanilla 40 December 1, 2012 16:12
Minor 3.3.0 feedback bron Vanilla 53 September 18, 2011 03:33


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.