Object detection and ID - a proposal

[Carnivean]

Originally Posted by Nick

Stage 3 is gained immediately on stepping onto the item square. Magical ID and ID by use are obsolete and removed.

This removes a further distinction for the magic classes. Part of the power of being a mage is to remove the need for consumables/rods for identifying items. Learning everything about an item merely by stepping on the same square essentially gives warriors more powers. They don't have to carry and protect an identifying item, freeing up a space in their inventory.

Identify by rune allows an endgame player to achieve the same goal, identifying everything and ignoring items they don't want, but having had to earn that right through the game. It also allows significantly better ignoring/squelching functionality than we currently have.

I'd also argue that there seems little difference between the different stages of detection in your model. What significant difference is there between being on top of an item, and on the square next to it? How is learning about an item by magic significantly worse than seeing it across the room? These distinctions seem arbitrary.

I would support a scheme where runes can be seen within LOS or via magic, and items are ignored accordingly. In addition using runes to generate powers allows more variation in the generation of items, rather than strict ego flavours.

[Zireael]

I must say I like selling, but ID by sale should die in a fire.

I think ID-by-rune is the best solution to ID problem in a roguelike. This way, players don't need to burn ?id or other identify sources on rubbish, mages still get their schtick of not needing rods/scrolls/what have you of id, and an reasonably experienced player character will ID nearly everything on sight, except maybe artifacts.

I also believe that consumables such as ? of boldness should ID on use regardless of being feared etc.

[Cold_Heart]

Originally Posted by Nick

Preferably replies with some content

ID by use makese sense - "I hit something and it froze - this must be a frost-branded weapon!"
ID by scroll/staff/rod/spell (and for same reason id by shop) makes sense - knowledge is not free, sacrifice something to learn something.

However, I don't see what sense "ID by walking stepping on" makes. Does every half-troll warrior suddenly get esper superpowers and can tell that given item will slay giants, reveal invisible and slow metabolism?

Also what kind of sense does forcing to id-by-use every potion of poison, paralysis, sleep and lose memories make?

And once again I will say, this is fixing what is not broken, the only change necessary for detection is return to non fuzzy detection.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Zireael

I think ID-by-rune is the best solution to ID problem in a roguelike. This way, players don't need to burn ?id or other identify sources on rubbish, mages still get their schtick of not needing rods/scrolls/what have you of id, and an reasonably experienced player character will ID nearly everything on sight, except maybe artifacts.

Agreed. I do feel like rune-based is the best balance between making early discoveries interesting and late-game item ID non-annoying. I liked the system a lot in v4, other issues with the complete overhaul of egos notwithstanding.

Maybe you could have runes visible on sight, but plusses/level of bonuses only on walkover? So, say, you'd recognise at a distance that a weapon was Slay Orc and squelch it, but would need to go and closely inspect that weapon of Extra Attacks to see whether it was +1 or +2 attacks and what the To-Dam modifier might be. The same with stat rings - you'd see it was Speed at a distance as now, but find out it was +5 Speed when moving into the same square, without the hassle of trying it on to see the bonus.

[debo]

I think Nick is looking for a reasonable ID mechanic to implement in the restructure, with rune-id being possible in the future. This is because the cutesy "ID by ridiculously gamey situation" also results in scattering equally ridiculous effect checks throughout everything, and I think that the existing ridiculous implementation has double-resistance to change.

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by Cold_Heart

ID by use makese sense - "I hit something and it froze - this must be a frost-branded weapon!"
ID by scroll/staff/rod/spell (and for same reason id by shop) makes sense - knowledge is not free, sacrifice something to learn something.

However, I don't see what sense "ID by walking stepping on" makes. Does every half-troll warrior suddenly get esper superpowers and can tell that given item will slay giants, reveal invisible and slow metabolism?

No, but magical powers are bestowed on items via the enchanted tags (on the pommel for weapons, in the back of the collar for armor, etc.), and the tags spell out the powers the item has as well as the proper way they should be washed and the "Made in Mordor" imprint.

As for why you do "when stepped on" instead of "when adjacent to", it's at least in part because otherwise artifacts would be recognized (and thus eligible to be lost) before the player has a chance to grab them. If you're in a massive melee with a pit of orcs and suddenly Azriel (or, uh, whichever Maiar replaced him) comes around the corner, you're going to be peeved if you're forced to bail and be unable to pick up that artifact that one of the orcs dropped. At least if it's only things you're standing on, you have the choice of sticking around for precisely one turn to grab the item before running.

[Nick]

Well, I don't want to do something that everyone hates, or even that a significant minority dislikes.

I guess it may have been better to ask what people think the ID system should be doing, and what they find fun or not about it. What would make the game the most interesting?

Looking more broadly, there is the question of what the game should feel like. Abbreviating horribly, I see it as a game of collecting objects and killing monsters to gain experience and equipment enough to kill Morgoth. The game is made up of simple building blocks which combine randomly to create challenges for the player in doing these things. It doesn't rely on trickery to make those challenges more difficult. But it also should be an adventure, not a soulless puzzle.

So my question is - what manner of acquiring knowledge about individual objects fits in best with this?

I should add that people shouldn't be worried about changes to ID making the game too easy - there are plenty of other ways to make it hard. It's a matter of what makes it interesting.

[Monkey Face]

I think rune based ID is best along with keeping magic ID for flavored items like scrolls and potions. That keeps mages with their early advantage while giving warriors an additional late game bonus. Keeping magic ID also means that a mage doesn't accidently read a scroll of deep descent on at 50' and plummet down to 300' where they are way out of their depth.

As someone else pointed out, Nick's idea is of little use for mages who lose the advantage of early identify. However, I would not mind it as a temporary alternative to rune based (which seems harder to code) except that I'd be afraid that once it was implemented, there would be a lot of resistance to switching to rune based.

[Cold_Heart]

Originally Posted by Nick

Well, I don't want to do something that everyone hates, or even that a significant minority dislikes.

I guess it may have been better to ask what people think the ID system should be doing, and what they find fun or not about it. What would make the game the most interesting?

Looking more broadly, there is the question of what the game should feel like. Abbreviating horribly, I see it as a game of collecting objects and killing monsters to gain experience and equipment enough to kill Morgoth. The game is made up of simple building blocks which combine randomly to create challenges for the player in doing these things. It doesn't rely on trickery to make those challenges more difficult. But it also should be an adventure, not a soulless puzzle.

So my question is - what manner of acquiring knowledge about individual objects fits in best with this?

I should add that people shouldn't be worried about changes to ID making the game too easy - there are plenty of other ways to make it hard. It's a matter of what makes it interesting.

From your proposed changes it seems that you want to make identification easier, more accessible, less tedious?

Then you could change the ?id/_id/-id/spell to act like probing for items - identify everything in line of sight.

[buzzkill]

I'm not sure I understand what you're proposing. Can you explain how this would differ from the status quo? Unless of course I do get it, in which case I'm firmly against it and have neither the time or inclination to compose an thoughtful response to such a hair-brained notion.

But seriously, I don't think that the Nick I know would propose what I'm reading, so hopefully a better explanation of proposed progress is in order.