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Old September 16, 2015, 07:26   #81
mushroom patch
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Originally Posted by Whelk View Post
Fixed that for you. I'm thrilled to see flavor stuff that doesn't give me any sort of hint or clue or rule explanation or example of something technical to help me win. A cool-looking room? Fun to see! A monster that eats light? Neat concept! A bloodstained corridor? Creepy! A dining-hall-themed room with a bunch of rations and wine and hard biscuits and jerky and potions of water/apple juice? Nice touch! A winding corridor off to the side of the normal dungeon with a dwarf skeleton and completely mundane shovel or pick at the end? Evocative!
You're talking about something that doesn't exist or at least isn't angband (unless this is a recent addition, in which case, fellas... smh). These things are a poor substitute for reading a book, watching a movie, or taking a walk.

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I'm hearing a lot of definitive-sounding statements about what constitutes good and bad, but all the conflicting and contrasting opinions seem to indicate that perhaps there isn't One True Way to Good Game Design.
That people have a lot of conflicting opinions, as usual, indicates nothing.
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Old September 16, 2015, 07:35   #82
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Well there used to be bones lying around on the floor, I forget if there were any dwarf skeletons though.
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Old September 16, 2015, 07:50   #83
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Well there used to be bones lying around on the floor, I forget if there were any dwarf skeletons though.
There were rodent skeletons and also shards of pottery and empty fllasks as well as broken armor and broken swords. And sticks. And broken doors.
All that has been removed already for good or bad. I am not sure about a variety of food and drinks, I think some of them is gone also.

Now we are on the way to take away food and light sources completely. While you are on it, you could take away hidden treasure, nobody needs it. There are still different wall tiles (at least in the graphic version of the game). Take them away, they are nothing but a diversion from our quest "Buy a lantern, kill Morgoth!"!

I like FAAngand as a whole more than vanilla because of it's many flavorful details. Vanilla is stll fun to play, but it gets more and more streamlined and stripped of all flavors.

Last edited by Mondkalb; September 16, 2015 at 09:43.
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Old September 16, 2015, 08:12   #84
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Speaking of which, I guess the corpses of your own prior YASD's were also taken out. I always thought it would be cool if you could loot an artifact from your own predecessor's corpse.
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Old September 16, 2015, 08:43   #85
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Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
I think flavor is good when it provides useful intuition for how the game can be played effectively. To take the Monopoly example, it's good that it uses concepts from real life (money, property, mortgages, development, etc.) because it helps the player grasp the rules. Similarly, it's good when a game like angband uses medieval melee weapons, bows and arrows, and to a lesser extent magic spells and devices because they provide accurate intuition about how the game's rules work.

Flavor, done right, is a collection of symbols that communicate game rules to players by analogy to their understanding of something familiar, either real or imagined. It also provides a language for talking about game rules with other players in a way that sounds less technical and more familiar.

Flavor can also be done badly. The signs of bad flavor are rules that are motivated by "realism" as understood in the model on the flavor side, but that have tedious or uninteresting consequences on the rules/gameplay side.
I think, then, that Derakon had the nub of it. The essence of the game, to you, is a set of rules and a win condition, and the "flavour" elements are only useful in as far as they serve to give good information about those rules.

Now there's absolutely nothing wrong with viewing the game like that. I'll even roughly agree on a mechanical level with your characterisation of when flavour is done well and when it's done badly. But the simple fact is that (evidenced by the posts from pretty much everyone but you in this thread) other people see it differently.

To take a trivial example, killing Singing Happy Drunks in town is a no-brainer, mechanic-wise - it's just free gold. But every now and then, as I pick up the gold, I think "He was happy, and I just killed him and took everything he owned". And I tend not to ignore potions of water, because when my character finds one and quaffs it I actually feel physically refreshed.

So by all means go on playing as a purely intellectual exercise - Angband makes a great form of complex solitaire. But don't for a moment kid yourself that everyone else is doing the same thing, because we're not.
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Old September 16, 2015, 10:15   #86
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To take a trivial example, killing Singing Happy Drunks in town is a no-brainer, mechanic-wise - it's just free gold. But every now and then, as I pick up the gold, I think "He was happy, and I just killed him and took everything he owned". And I tend not to ignore potions of water, because when my character finds one and quaffs it I actually feel physically refreshed.
You do? Strange I've always favoured using the most overpowered attack spell for the singing happy drunk. Very cathartic.
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Old September 16, 2015, 10:33   #87
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You do? Strange I've always favoured using the most overpowered attack spell for the singing happy drunk. Very cathartic.
I've just been very disappointed to discover that you can't kill a singing happy drunk by flinging flasks of fine wine at him. Please fix this. For flavour reasons.
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Old September 16, 2015, 11:35   #88
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Well, at least I know why the game still has potions of water now.
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Old September 16, 2015, 12:08   #89
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I've just been very disappointed to discover that you can't kill a singing happy drunk by flinging flasks of fine wine at him. Please fix this. For flavour reasons.
But not from the impact, from the cirrhosis. Have them give a stream of messages as they die please.
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Old September 16, 2015, 15:47   #90
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Speaking of which, I guess the corpses of your own prior YASD's were also taken out. I always thought it would be cool if you could loot an artifact from your own predecessor's corpse.
Angband never had corpses of previous characters; that's a NetHack thing. It did used to have player ghosts, monsters based on your old dead characters that you could fight. That got taken out years ago and for some reason never returned. Of course several variants have restored this feature.

(Especially nasty was that if you had another character around that wasn't dead, you could encounter a player "ghost" based on them in the town, which could create some really dangerous fights)
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