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Old May 4, 2011, 20:11   #31
Spacebux
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Tenser's is useful for vastly increasing the reliability of recharging, which makes your attack wands more viable. Wands of Annihilation + Greater Recharging is actually reasonably viable against Morgoth.
I give up...

You guys just want to talk tactics.

One of these days, I'll just code it myself (me and all my C-abilities) and offer it to the code gawds... who would then most likely have to completely re-write whatever trash code I come up with.
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Old May 4, 2011, 20:35   #32
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One of these days, I'll just code it myself (me and all my C-abilities) and offer it to the code gawds... who would then most likely have to completely re-write whatever trash code I come up with.
This is a good plan... it's a lot easier to discuss a concrete patch to gameplay than to discuss things from first principles around here
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Old May 4, 2011, 20:39   #33
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I'm arguing that with my tactics, what you are proposing is at best a minor benefit, to weigh against the cost of code changes, testing and rebalancing a whole class. But I'm sure a fork of the main code would get some playtesting if you did that.
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Old May 4, 2011, 21:11   #34
Derakon
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I give up...

You guys just want to talk tactics.
Sorry, didn't mean to hammer the tactics button so hard. I don't in principle object to the concept of spell scrolls; I just don't think that the problem they're solving is as big as you make it out to be either.

Finding a new spellbook for a mage is roughly equivalent to a warrior or hybrid class finding a nice new weapon. I can't count the number of times that my melee characters have been scraping along when suddenly they find a new toy that literally doubles their offense, and suddenly business is booming again. A similar effect occurs with Raal's, and to a lesser extent Kelek's. We could smooth out the power curve on weapons by e.g. replacing the disparate egos with Diablo-style gems that you socket onto a base item to add abilities to it, but nobody feels it's a problem that needs fixing. And besides, finding that new powerful weapon is fun!

All this talk about tactics is basically my way of saying "I don't think the sudden-power-differential aspect of book finding is a problem that needs fixing, for these reasons."
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Old May 4, 2011, 21:41   #35
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Actually, I was referring to the fact that I've blamed you a few times recently for changes that weren't your fault, e.g. putting DSMs under standard armor squelch.
Indeed - but my thesis is that this only occurs because I have such an uncanny ability to annoy you with stuff that is my fault ;-)
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Old May 4, 2011, 22:51   #36
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Sorry, didn't mean to hammer the tactics button so hard. I don't in principle object to the concept of spell scrolls; I just don't think that the problem they're solving is as big as you make it out to be either.

All this talk about tactics is basically my way of saying "I don't think the sudden-power-differential aspect of book finding is a problem that needs fixing, for these reasons."
I had a few tissues, took my g/f to lunch, and had a good cry... I'm over it.

I'm not saying there is a problem with the current system other than the situation is AAA, when changing to a spell-scroll system could result in BBB. I also put forth the idea that instead of always being able to learn all the spells in one's class, the V. game could incorporate a greater number of spells---some of which the player would be able to find / use, but not necessarily all of them. The player would need to make a choice whether to expend a Study session to learn a spell or not.

How many Priest players, for example, are moaning and begrudging the fact there are 3 spells which are nothing but repeats of the same thing: Bless, Holy Chant, Holy Prayer?? What if you could choose (I know, this is purely incongruous with the current pot-luck style of gaining priest spells) not to learn 2 of the 3 redundant spells in favor of expending Study energy elsewhere? (And, yes, with a spell-scroll system, one could theoretically choose NOT to put prayers in one's prayer book.)

The game designers could code up several spells, some of which are prevalent, others which are arguably more powerful, would be found less frequently. Ideally, say there were 100-some spells coded up; a Mage/Priest would at 18/200 Int/Wis have the capacity to memorize 80-some. Not knowing if/when another spell-scroll might turn up, a player would be making a large decision on which spells to learn / not-learn along the way.

I believe it would be a better, more exciting way to play...

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Old May 4, 2011, 23:09   #37
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The player would need to make a choice whether to expend a Study session to learn a spell or not.
That ought to be trivial for you to change and test. Just set things up so that the max number of spells you can learn is half what it is now. Maybe cut the number available in half along the way. That's probably only a few lines of code to change. Play a bit and post your chars to the ladder.
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Old May 4, 2011, 23:12   #38
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If I am reading Spacebux's proposal correctly (and even more so in this most latest post), his proposal of spell-scrolls would allow a spell caster to customize their spell reporatory rather than carry the same set of spell books, and that gameplay would be different than finally finding a whole book farther down rather than individual spell scrolls, possibly earlier in the dungeon.

If that is so, I like it.
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Old May 4, 2011, 23:17   #39
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Spacebux: that's entirely fair. I suppose the cause of all this argument was that we (or at least, I) read your first post as "The game is flawed in this manner, and here is a possible fix for it", when in actuality it was "I don't like this particular aspect of the game; what about this alternate approach?" Though I don't doubt that even if I/we'd read the intent correctly there'd still be a big tactics discussion.

The priest spell list needs some work. In fact, both magic realms do, and there's been threads about what to do to them, though not for awhile. My personal inclination is to stick with the by-now thoroughly playtested book format, but as I said earlier I don't object in principle to finding spells piecemeal either.

One concern I have, though, with limiting "study charges" to fewer than there are spells is that it incentivizes the player to purposefully skip spells that make the early game easier in favor of learning late-game spells, which is a bizarre way to make the game harder. I generally don't like systems that say "You could be a bit stronger now, but if you want to be really strong later then you'll have to hold back."

Diablo II's basic skill system had many such issues, for example: you wouldn't invest in e.g. Fire Arrow because Immolation Arrow unlocked at level 18 and was basically strictly better. They fixed that issue by adding cross-skill synergies (so that points in Fire Arrow would make Immolation Arrow better). I suppose the analogy in Angband would be that you'd invest in e.g. elemental magic, or healing magic, or detection magic, and each spell in a given category would get boosts from having learned other spells in the category. But that's getting into variant territory, IMO.
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Old May 5, 2011, 01:39   #40
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Finding a new spellbook for a mage is roughly equivalent to a warrior or hybrid class finding a nice new weapon.
This ^^^ (or a staff of speed, or a good supply of TO).

I do like the notion of mages pasting bits of parchment into a custom made spell book, but I can't help but wonder how long it would be before players learn the optimum spell selections (via spoilers, if not personal experience) and then compile books containing exactly those spells, and so all mages will be carrying (nearly) identical spell books once again.
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