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Old October 19, 2011, 21:31   #91
Zyphyr
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Originally Posted by EpicMan View Post
I was a bit unclear. I was actually trying to say what you just said but apparently failed badly
For what it is worth, I understood you.
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Old October 21, 2011, 15:58   #92
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It sounds to me like this is a great (positive) change from a base code perspective - more flexible, easier to tweak and so on. There is already significant balancing work needed - wouldn't this make that work much easier to do? Why not go ahead and plug in all the changes, if not for 3.4 at least for 3.5? There are some things you can't change by half measures, and reworking the issues with item generation is one of them. Earlier is definitely better than later here.

Also, it sounded very cool to playtest.

Another thought - with the underlying code more flexible, the randart option could be extended - standard artifacts and egos, or random artifacts and egos.
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Old October 21, 2011, 16:03   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taha View Post
It sounds to me like this is a great (positive) change from a base code perspective - more flexible, easier to tweak and so on. There is already significant balancing work needed - wouldn't this make that work much easier to do? Why not go ahead and plug in all the changes, if not for 3.4 at least for 3.5? There are some things you can't change by half measures, and reworking the issues with item generation is one of them. Earlier is definitely better than later here.

Also, it sounded very cool to playtest.

Another thought - with the underlying code more flexible, the randart option could be extended - standard artifacts and egos, or random artifacts and egos.
You read my mind (or perhaps you read the wiki page). There will definitely be more flexibility for randarts using this system. We've also worked out how to adjust the number of artifacts during the game, so we're not limited to choosing how many to randomise at the start. We can start the game with (any or all of) the standard artifacts, and then generate randarts during the game.

Please rest assured that it will be made available for playtesting - it's just going through some initial balancing to try and minimise the WTF factor when you first play it.
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Old October 21, 2011, 21:19   #94
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
You read my mind (or perhaps you read the wiki page). There will definitely be more flexibility for randarts using this system. We've also worked out how to adjust the number of artifacts during the game, so we're not limited to choosing how many to randomise at the start. We can start the game with (any or all of) the standard artifacts, and then generate randarts during the game.

Please rest assured that it will be made available for playtesting - it's just going through some initial balancing to try and minimise the WTF factor when you first play it.
Aww, I like the WTF factor.
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Old October 22, 2011, 03:53   #95
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I love the WTF factor as well :| cannot wait to playtest this
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Old October 22, 2011, 22:13   #96
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I love the WTF factor as well :| cannot wait to playtest this
Well, if you can build it yourself, it's in the v4 repo. If not, we should have the autobuilder set up in the next few days. (If you missed the v4 announcement, it's here.)
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Old October 22, 2011, 23:18   #97
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Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
Aww, I like the WTF factor.
This is actually more than joke. Game should produce WTF -effect every now and then. So called "unbalanced" items might not be unbalanced if you count that in. The One Ring for example (after making it a lot more rare) should be thing that absolutely nobody could resists putting in because it is so "overpowered".

If the WTF is "I'm walking in a shoe store", then that is something we need to fix. If it is something extraordinary happening very rarely, then there is no reason to "fix" it.
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Old October 23, 2011, 00:10   #98
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
This is actually more than joke. Game should produce WTF -effect every now and then. So called "unbalanced" items might not be unbalanced if you count that in. The One Ring for example (after making it a lot more rare) should be thing that absolutely nobody could resists putting in because it is so "overpowered".

If the WTF is "I'm walking in a shoe store", then that is something we need to fix. If it is something extraordinary happening very rarely, then there is no reason to "fix" it.
Agreed, and IMO the WTF factor should not be restricted to items but should apply to monsters and dungeon cretion as well. I remember the first time I found a greater vault that was definitely a WTF moment.
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Old October 23, 2011, 08:03   #99
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Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
Agreed, and IMO the WTF factor should not be restricted to items but should apply to monsters and dungeon cretion as well. I remember the first time I found a greater vault that was definitely a WTF moment.
I meant something slightly different by "WTF factor". I wasn't so much thinking of the "oh WOW!" moments that (I think) you and Timo are now discussing, but of the "Angband isn't like this!?!" feelings that I think many people will experience on trying v4. For example, lots of the base item names for armour pieces have been changed, to remove references to their materials (e.g. Soft Leather Armour is now a Jerkin, Hard Leather Armour is now Banded Armour - shields are small/large/kite/tower/bulwark rather than wicker/metal/mithril etc.). But we'll see.
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Old October 27, 2011, 00:28   #100
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I am sad to see these changes won't be in 3.4; I hope they will go in 3.5.
It all rather depends on the community response to them. If they're at the point where there is a broad consensus they are a good move, we'll include them. If it's considered that they break flavour, then maybe we need to see if we can reflavour them and then include them. And if people still think they do too much to damage flavour, maybe they'll never go in.

(I really want them to, though! I think they'll make the game a lot more interesting without introducing a ton of new features.)
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