Taking advantage of multiple pvals

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

I agree that needing that much CON is problem, but Thorin being strong item is not the cause of that problem. Reason why everyone uses it is that it is the only useful item in that slot that gives CON (and STR) bonuses. Even if you take out IMM_ACID, RES_SOUND and RES_CHAOS, it would still be used. Even if you give it penalties it would be used. There is no other choice.

Problem is that it has no competition. Give it competition. Something like Dwarven shield with random high resist and like +2/+3 STR and CON with rConf would be no-brainer to anyone lacking rConf (or maybe even nexus or blindness) even with Thorin. Thorin would then be reduced as swap-item to give IMM_ACID when needed. Or not, if you already have all your gear ignore acid. Acid is the weakest of basic4, with just resist acid you get max 266 points of damage from monster that breathes it full strength, and monsters that do breathe acid at any significant amount are rare indeed (GWoMColors breathes for about 1470, only Ancalagon breathes acid full strenght). Double-resist and you hardly get any damage at all, which means your gear is also saved.

Constitution just is too valuable. Only thing that goes over it is speed, which is another reason we have this problem, because any source of speed usually doesn't have CON bonus (Gondor, Thror and Sting are exceptions), and major source is rings, which means one valuable slot less to get CON. Maybe change in entire HP concept to reduce value of CON and increase value of clvl is in order.

Now you're talking. Personally I'd like to weaken Thorin *and* reduce the importance of +CON at the same time, but ...

If you find Thorin too powerful as low level item then make it deeper. There is no need to make it weaker.

.... that's a reasonable alternative.

Surely you could cope with -1 stealth on Thorin though? All dwarven items should have -stealth IMO ...

That depends where you compare it to. Sting is low-damage weapon, what makes it powerful is the +2 it also gives for combat stats which might actually make it +3 blows weapon if stats are right, and speed it has. For a weapon you can have pretty much any high-dice extra blows weapon and get it beaten. Especially with off-weapon brands. For out of curiosity I gave a debug char pretty normal set of gear for mid/late-game including RoDam +11, Elessar and Cambeleg and just long sword of extra attacks (2d5) (+10,+15) (+2) was enough to clearly beat Sting. Only that speed bonus gives it advantage if it is nearby some breakpoint (+8/9 or +18/19). Something like Haradekket beats it easily, and medium-rarity weapons like Til-i-Arc or Totila are about in par with the damage (with warrior).

Maybe Sting isn't weak, but it definitely is weak enough that it doesn't need any further weakening.

Ok, you've convinced me on that. What about the other +2 blows artifacts - Dagmor? Harradeket you mentioned (and should probably stay unchanged) - any others?

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by Magnate

What about the other +2 blows artifacts - Dagmor? Harradeket you mentioned (and should probably stay unchanged) - any others?

Are you asking me or Derakon? I have no problems with those (or Sting, I actually like how it is now).

[Derakon]

I tend to use Dagmor when I find it, but it's not really impressive to be honest. It typically replaces a simple branded weapon or common slay, and in turn gets replaced by the first actually interesting artifact weapon I find. I think it's fine. I can't remember the last time I found Haradekket in a depth where it was useful, which doesn't mean it's in the wrong place; just that I've been unlucky.

As for boots: keep in mind that BoS are end-game kit. Usually you don't find them until fairly late. However, you can find artifact boots much earlier, and all of the artifact boots are awesome. If you did find BoS +high they'd replace most of the artifact boots (except Dal-i-thalion, which has +5 already, and Feanor for obvious reasons), but that's not really a problem IMO. The boots have already served their purpose by providing the player with good boosts from when they found them onwards. But do they really need to be as good as they are? Thror gives STR/CON, Wormtongue gives INT/DEX/Stealth, Dal-i-thalion gives DEX, and they all give speed. These are pretty awesome boosts from your feet, especially compared to the ego competition, which is basically Free Action, Feather Fall, Stealth, or Resist Nexus.

[Max Stats]

Originally Posted by Derakon

* Modify the 'thancs:
* Narthanc: -1 STR/INT
* Nimthanc: -1 WIS/DEX
* Dethanc: -1 CON/CHA

Please, no. They are practically useless as it is.

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by Max Stats

Please, no. They are practically useless as it is.

They're bloody awesome. Lightweight branded 2d4 weapons with (+4,+6) at a time when you're probably only using a basic magic weapon? Sure they obsolete quickly, but I think a minor stat penalty is an entirely reasonable price to pay for the huge boost they give your melee damage.

EDIT: compare:

3 blows with a Rapier (1d6) (+3, +3): 6.5 * 3 = 19.5 average damage
3 blows with Dethanc with brand: (6d4) (+4, +6): 63 average damage

In fact, in addition to a stat malus these daggers should only get the x2 elemental brands instead of the x3. Tripling your damage is ridiculous.

[bulian]

Why not just lower damage bonuses on items? The key factor is that damage bonuses are multiplied per blow. Discounting haradrim shield, a typical endgame kit probably consists of: Elessar (7) + cambeleg(8) + narya (6) + hammerhand (9) = +30. So that's an extra 120-180 damage per round against everything, regardless of weapon, before slays/brands/etc.

Wearing those items alone, Sting is a viable weapon for fighting morgoth with 534 dmg/round against evil as a level 50 high elf warrior, compared to 290 dmg/round without any of them.

Along those same lines, combat +to hit bonuses from heroism(+12) /berserk(+24)/holy chant(+10) also stack, which has a large impact on non warriors. For example, a level 50 mage goes from a 64% chance to hit Sauron (AC 160) wielding Aule with the above kit to 74% chance with the above 3 buffs, which is a pretty substantial bump.

So, with multiple pvals, I would reduce melee damage bonuses across the board, perhaps by half, but keep melee to hit bonuses intact., though I think that was possible before.

I'd also make the speed bonus "trickery independent of the dex bonus.

IMO the speed bonus on Thror is too low and its deep enough where it isn't competitive with any of the other boots that you have already likely found.

[camlost]

Sangband made the RoP must-wear items by granting them a speed boost of +10. I'm guessing the Vanilla crowd likes that they're not must-wear items, but perhaps a speed of +5 would make them more interesting? I guess it comes down to whether you think people should be wielding the RoP preferentially.

(as a side note, I like that Nenya gives +2 str,con,cha, and nenya gives +4 int/wis/dex)

[Atarlost]

Indeed. There's already a separate movement to fix the light weapon problem, at which point the *thancs will only be better than medium weight branded egos for low strength characters. Let's not make a balance change that will have to be reversed soon because of a more fundamental fix.

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by Atarlost

Indeed. There's already a separate movement to fix the light weapon problem, at which point the *thancs will only be better than medium weight branded egos for low strength characters. Let's not make a balance change that will have to be reversed soon because of a more fundamental fix.

Well, they will get the weaker brands in any event, as befits early-game artifacts. But your point is more generally valid - we shouldn't agonise too much over the exact stats of artifact weapons until after the light/heavy rebalancing is done.

[dos350]

id say the real goodness of multi pval is extreme overpower leetness, ee anyway stealth - not bad cos can get other +stealth thing, actually make wanting stealth more- there is no cure for aggreivve i dont think, ee~!