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Old October 16, 2011, 05:13   #41
camlost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
That is a bit negative - you always have the option of continuing to develop NPP without keeping up to date with V?
Sure, it's a bit negative, but there's a certain cohesion among variants and Vanilla that lead to a certain minimum maintenance standard below which makes it hard for players to move between variants. It doesn't help that players play the variants that are being modified, and Vanilla already has such a large draw.

I certainly have thoughts similar to nppangband, though that's not the only reason I haven't been doing much maintenance lately.
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Old October 16, 2011, 07:08   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camlost View Post
Sure, it's a bit negative, but there's a certain cohesion among variants and Vanilla that lead to a certain minimum maintenance standard below which makes it hard for players to move between variants. It doesn't help that players play the variants that are being modified, and Vanilla already has such a large draw.
Despite my occasional grand plans to unify everything, I am inclined to think that a certain amount of creative tension is good overall. While the current situation is very demanding on variant maintainers, I think it's great for players.

It's worth noting, too, that a lot of the gameplay innovations to V have come (directly or indirectly) from variants.

I think, too, that at some point not too far away Vanilla will get to the stage where there is a portion of the code (low-level stuff + UI/ports) which will be more or less distinct, and so variant maintainers will essentially just have to make sure they can 'plug in' to that, and immediately reap all the benefits of latest ports to multiple platforms.

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Old October 16, 2011, 07:57   #43
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I think, too, that at some point not too far away Vanilla will get to the stage where there is a portion of the code (low-level stuff + UI/ports) which will be more or less distinct, and so variant maintainers will essentially just have to make sure they can 'plug in' to that, and immediately reap all the benefits of latest ports to multiple platforms.
I find it a curious and...quaint...artifact of the game's development history that this is not the case, so many years later.
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Old October 16, 2011, 08:03   #44
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I think, too, that at some point not too far away Vanilla will get to the stage where there is a portion of the code (low-level stuff + UI/ports) which will be more or less distinct, and so variant maintainers will essentially just have to make sure they can 'plug in' to that, and immediately reap all the benefits of latest ports to multiple platforms.
Will that be AngbandBase?

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Old October 16, 2011, 08:18   #45
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Will that be AngbandBase?
Um ... yeah ... kind of.

What I hope will happen is that a bunch of low level stuff (file handling, parser, rng and so on) will become a library, and essentially that library will be the evolution of AngbandBase. Variants should then be able to have hooks into that. Then there will be the UI code, and the game (whether V or variant) should be able to tell that what to put to the screen, and accept appropriate commands from it.

Knowing where to draw the boundaries between these things is the difficult bit. That and stopping the dev team messing with it
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Old October 16, 2011, 09:05   #46
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The problem is that the names have flavour, a flavour different from the original.
Ok, then they can be changed to match the flavour of the original. That isn't impossible.
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That wasn't my argument in this post.
Yet it is *precisely* what you went on to say in response to fizzix.
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Old October 16, 2011, 09:50   #47
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>> The problem is that the names have flavour, a flavour different from the original.
> Ok, then they can be changed to match the flavour of the original. That isn't impossible.

So my suggestion is "someone should do that"

What did you think of my idea of "silent affixes" that modify the properties but not the name or description? That should prevent the proliferation of "sharp swords of craftmanship" [i.e. sword (+6, +6)].

>> That wasn't my argument in this post.
> Yet it is *precisely* what you went on to say in response to fizzix.

This is getting into an attribution snarl.

You thought I thought "that Angband really shouldn't have more variation in [non-artifact equipment] than exists in the current ego_item.txt"

I replied that, instead, "any increase in variation in ego items should be very carefully considered". And I suggested to the excellent fizzix that you should not "include any affix in 3.4 that was not (in some form) in 3.3".

So it is a matter of how much you change, and how fast; and my suggestion is that 3.4 should change the range of items as little as possible. Wide-ranging changes to the distribution of items will be bad enough.

I can handle a "mithril banded mail" or "rusty plate mail" if necessary, or maybe even a "two-handed sword of slicing" at the outside, but if Sethos's "giant bastard sword of cruelty" or "midnight mace of majesty" pop up any time soon then I will wash my hands of you.

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Old October 16, 2011, 09:52   #48
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I also think it would be good if there was a strategy for balancing object distributions. I see a tool (the object simulator) but I'm not clear what exactly is going to be done with it.

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Old October 16, 2011, 12:35   #49
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I promise you, the changes being made are making it *MUCH* more difficult and frustrating to maintain a variant.
I agree with this, and think it is an important point for the Dev Team to take note of. That said, I've pretty much given up on the idea that Sil will keep up to date with V.

Redesigns of the V code can help *future* variant designers but rarely help existing variant maintainers.
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Old October 16, 2011, 15:31   #50
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I agree with this, and think it is an important point for the Dev Team to take note of. That said, I've pretty much given up on the idea that Sil will keep up to date with V.

Redesigns of the V code can help *future* variant designers but rarely help existing variant maintainers.
I'm sympathetic to this point of view, but I'm not sure what the solution is. On the one side there's stagnation for V, on the other side variant maintainers are left in the dust.

It's hard for me to think that moving more things to edit files is not a noble goal, and should be pursued. I originally got into Angband because it was customizable without any compilation or code changing. Sure, I couldn't add new spell effects. But, I could add things like rods of teleportation, or play with monster drops using DROP_GOOD and DROP_GREAT. Two things I remember doing before ever winning my first game.

Antoine. What if the name doesn't change but the description does? So it's not called a "sharp broadsword" but it has a description line oon the Inspect screen that says, "it is sharper than usual"? Is this still a flavor break? One of the things I miss in current V is the "strikes undead with holy wrath" lines for the less exciting, "does 250 damage per round to undead". I'd like to find a way to bring little things like that back.
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