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Old November 16, 2011, 17:22   #11
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Making better amulets be available would make the game easier. We're rather worried about that lately. And Trickery is overpowered because for most players it's a no-brainer to wear one; it gives speed, poison resistance, a DEX boost (often useful for more combat blows), stealth, and a few other useful attributes. That's amazingly good compared to its competition.

Keep in mind that each equipment slot is not meant to compete with other equipment slots. It's perfectly fine if most amulets are not very impressive compared to most rings or body armors or the like. The game is balanced at least in part around you not getting very many boosts from your amulet slot; if you make the amulet slot stronger, you have to make everything else weaker to compensate, or else accept that you've just made the game easier.
I think this pass was sold by JLE. Either we revert the JLE changes so that the amulet slot sucks again (I know some people would like that) or we provide significant competition for Trickery (and tone it down some more).

What I want to know is why aren't Magi/Weaponmastery/Devotion aren't considered really competitive with Trickery? What did JLE get wrong? Are they too niche, or not findable enough, or what? What would make the difference, to make all four equally attractive?

Of course, IMO the way forward is ego amulets, but that's for testing in v4 ....
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Old November 16, 2011, 17:23   #12
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Originally Posted by dhegler View Post
I also think that if warriors get critical hits, casters should get something similar too, but that is just another idea for another conversation.
This is on the "revamping combat" radar. Sangband has critical hits with devices (and with spells, IIRC), so it's not untried.
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Old November 16, 2011, 18:01   #13
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What does Trickery have that Weaponmastery and Devotion don't? Speed, stealth, and by far the best resistance set (Devotion has light/dark/fire; Weaponmastery has fear/disenchantment; Trickery has poison/nexus). Probably the big reason why everyone uses Trickery is that covering poison resistance is fairly tricky without it -- but it also gives lots of other bonuses in addition to that. In particular, there's no excuse for it giving a speed bonus, even if that bonus is only 1+M2. Compare +1-3 speed to the tiny off-weapon combat bonuses on Weaponmastery and there's just no contest.

As for Devotion, it's really not very compelling. At 1+M3 WIS it can't even beat out an Amulet of Wisdom for priests in need of WIS boosts. Its other modifiers are two low-quality resistances (light/dark, a.k.a. ad-hoc blindness resistance), resist fire (pointless in 90% of use cases), hold life (pointless), sustain WIS/CHA (almost entirely pointless; very few WIS drainers in the game), a CHA bonus (pointless), and +1 light radius.

Amulets of the Magi, in contrast, have several useful features: they're the only way to give INT on an amulet slot, they give blindness resistance flat-out, and they combine SI and FA on the same slot, which otherwise only ever happens on weapons IIRC. Given how vital those two abilities are, getting them on a slot that you weren't otherwise getting much utility out of can make your equipment optimization a lot easier. "Magi used to be the best amulets in the game, and I think they're still decent.
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Old November 16, 2011, 19:10   #14
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
What does Trickery have that Weaponmastery and Devotion don't? Speed, stealth, and by far the best resistance set (Devotion has light/dark/fire; Weaponmastery has fear/disenchantment; Trickery has poison/nexus). Probably the big reason why everyone uses Trickery is that covering poison resistance is fairly tricky without it -- but it also gives lots of other bonuses in addition to that. In particular, there's no excuse for it giving a speed bonus, even if that bonus is only 1+M2. Compare +1-3 speed to the tiny off-weapon combat bonuses on Weaponmastery and there's just no contest.
Really, it seems particularly daft that Weaponmastery should grant protection from fear, considering that's the one thing guaranteed to be entirely useless to warriors. Personally I think I'd strip the speed bonus off of Trickery and shuffle the resistances around to:

Devotion - fear/nexus
Weaponmastery - stun/disenchantment
Trickery - light/dark/poison
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Old November 16, 2011, 19:28   #15
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Really, it seems particularly daft that Weaponmastery should grant protection from fear, considering that's the one thing guaranteed to be entirely useless to warriors. Personally I think I'd strip the speed bonus off of Trickery and shuffle the resistances around to:

Devotion - fear/nexus
Weaponmastery - stun/disenchantment
Trickery - light/dark/poison
Where do these concepts even come from? Is there some mention of these in some fantasy works? Or did these things get added a while ago just because?
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Old November 16, 2011, 19:59   #16
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What, the different element types? Ask the original devs; they've been in Angband ever since it split from Moria.
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Old November 16, 2011, 22:03   #17
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
What I want to know is why aren't Magi/Weaponmastery/Devotion aren't considered really competitive with Trickery?
Speed/poison/nexus/DEX/infravision/stealth is just too strong combo. I think it is that poison resist that makes Trickery amulet above all other amulets. Speed is other thing that makes it amulet above other amulets. It would be good even with just Nexus/DEX/Infravision/stealth.

Weaponmastery and Magi aren't useless, Weaponmastery is good for preventing disenchantment and it has important sustains and important STR bonus as well as combat bonuses, Magi is good for INT/FA/SI and confusion/blindness (depending of version).

Devotion is pretty useless, if you are playing priest or paladin you prefer WIS +5/6. There isn't anything in Devotion that makes it useful to anyone after you have Arkenstone. If that would go up to +6 WIS then it would be useful.
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Old November 17, 2011, 07:06   #18
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
* Controlled teleport is an amazingly powerful ability in Angband. Every variant that's implemented it that I've played, it's completely wrecked game balance. It might be made to be balanced by making it a short-range line-of-sight teleport though.
In S, there's a semi-controlled teleport. It never becomes completely accurate, and early on it's fairly random, and no longer range than phase door. I consider it good, but not breaking/defining/required. Or course, only mage-likes can use it multiple times in a row.
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Old November 17, 2011, 12:40   #19
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What, the different element types? Ask the original devs; they've been in Angband ever since it split from Moria.
I mean the concept of those specific amulets... When I started playing in the pre-3.0 days, I don't even remember them. Maybe I was never good enough to get deep enough to find them though.
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Old November 17, 2011, 12:54   #20
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I mean the concept of those specific amulets... When I started playing in the pre-3.0 days, I don't even remember them. Maybe I was never good enough to get deep enough to find them though.
They didn't exist before 3.0. You should ask JLE why he did what he did, I don't think anybody else has any idea.

My guess is that he just plain invented something out of his head to make amulets a bit more interesting.
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