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Old August 20, 2012, 23:43   #1
Therem Harth
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Another proposal re floor traps

- Make all traps visible by default when lit, by calling pick_trap() at the end of place_trap()
- Make traps deadlier, especially at high levels
- Get rid of trap detection spells and items
- Get rid of disarming spells
- Make disarming items rarer and more expensive

IMO this would allow traps to be made much more interesting as a game mechanic.

(FWIW I'm trying out something like this in branch of my ToME clone repo on Gitorious. Currently it just has the first change, and ToME traps already cover the second pretty well, but there might be other changes in the works.)
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Old August 21, 2012, 00:28   #2
Patashu
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But then you have to add
- Disable tunneling from unlimited sources
Or now the solution to deadly, tough to disarm traps is 'tunnel around them'
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Old August 21, 2012, 00:41   #3
Derakon
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Or tunneling should be made more difficult (or otherwise have significant tradeoffs), so that you can't always afford to just dig around every trap you find.

Part of the problem with traps is that they often aren't placed sensibly, while in vaults (where they cannot be avoided) they're often spammed excessively. Vault trap placements + deadly, un-disarmable traps makes vaults painful.

Though, if you're going to go to the effort to change trap effects to be more deadly, going to the effort of modifying vault layouts wouldn't be an unreasonable secondary task.
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Old August 21, 2012, 08:36   #4
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Or tunneling should be made more difficult (or otherwise have significant tradeoffs), so that you can't always afford to just dig around every trap you find.
Tunneling wakes up everything just like aggravation? After all banging granite wall should make quite a lot of noise. Don't know if that should apply to stone to mud spell though.
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Old August 21, 2012, 08:56   #5
Mikko Lehtinen
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Interesting! Here's what I'm playtesting, with good results:

Traps are only found in:

1) Rooms with closets in walls. Closets have treasure, so there's an incentive to spend time in the trapped room.
2) Vaults.
3) Around trap-setting monsters (if they are around when the level is generated).

You only get one Perception check to find a trap!

Also, you may only try to disarm a trap once! If it fails, subsequent tries tell you that "You have no idea how to disarm the trap."

Magical effects to disarm or detect traps are rare. They do exist as scrolls and staves -- you need to invest money and inventory space, if you want to be prepared.

Traps in Fay can be quite nasty.
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Old August 22, 2012, 01:06   #6
Therem Harth
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That's also interesting. A bit different from what I'm thinking of, but I can see its good points.

Invisible traps are powerful good flavor. OTOH, instakill traps are terrible for gameplay; and since your character is supposed to become a fairly skilled adventurer at some point, I think it's reasonable to assume that (s)he usually knows a trap when (s)he sees one.

I think the biggest flavor problem is posed by magical traps. Speaking in-universe, the fancy rune concealed in a narrow corridor under a pile of rubble might not be very noticeable until it sets you on fire.
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Old August 22, 2012, 08:03   #7
Mikko Lehtinen
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I've found that being killed by a summoning trap is much more fun when you know beforehand that the room is heavily trapped... And when you've made a conscious choice that carrying a pile of Scrolls of Protection from Traps wasn't worth it.

Making Perception skill more important also helps to differentiate races and classes. Grippli Rangers with high Wisdom aren't likely to be killed by traps.

IMO if the trap finding aspect of Perception was removed from the game, it might be a good idea to remove Perception skill altogether, and maybe invent a new useful skill to replace it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therem Harth View Post
I think the biggest flavor problem is posed by magical traps. Speaking in-universe, the fancy rune concealed in a narrow corridor under a pile of rubble might not be very noticeable until it sets you on fire.
Warding runes in walls that shoot evil rays to all cardinal directions might work better flavour-wise?

Last edited by Mikko Lehtinen; August 22, 2012 at 08:15.
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Old August 22, 2012, 17:38   #8
Mikko Lehtinen
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I agree that instakilling traps are not fun.

I also think that traps that only cause some damage or distract you for a while are boring. They only matter if you step in the trap when there are dangerous mosters nearby. Usually these traps are pointless and just slow down the game.

IMO the best traps are ones that cause some kind of semi-permanent harm: destroy equipment, damage abilities, drain experience, curse equipment, etc. With traps like these, trap detection skills and equipment are very useful but not necessary.
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Old August 22, 2012, 18:05   #9
LostTemplar
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Quote:
I agree that instakilling traps are not fun.

I also think that traps that only cause some damage or distract you for a while are boring.
There is a feature in angband, and all of it's variants, that anything, that does not kill in one turn does no harm due to escapes, one turn heal all hp, etc. It can be fixed, e.g. drain stats permanently, drain levels permanently, destroy equipment etc. traps may be added, so they are not deadly but harmfull.
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Old August 22, 2012, 18:09   #10
Derakon
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Some random thoughts:

* A trap that clears out walls in the area. The player likes to fight in confined spaces? Remove 'em. Combine that with summoning, possibly.

* Similarly, transmute walls into doors. This is possibly a bit wacky for Angband's flavor, though.

* Sound an alarm that quadruples monster spawn rates for the remainder of the dungeon level. If you want to keep exploring, be prepared to fight.

* Wake up the entire dungeon level. Possibly, deeper versions of the trap could also haste everything on the level.

Stuff that would be more feasible with some form of scripting:

* Summon an otherwise-normal monster with a special flag that causes it to clone and heal every N turns; the player has to take the monster out before that happens or risk it overrunning the level. Sort of like a breeder on steroids, except that this could be any non-unique monster type (self-replicating Archliches!).

* Teleport the player to an arena with an out-of-depth monster who has a guaranteed nice drop -- but leaving the arena forfeits the match.
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