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Old October 16, 2014, 18:03   #321
Derakon
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Functionally nil, unless you're savescumming and did the exact same sequence of events prior to generating the 100' level.
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Old October 16, 2014, 18:21   #322
wobbly
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Completely different character. Definitely identical level.

Edit: Pretty sure I got the vault bug message if that makes any difference.

Last edited by wobbly; October 16, 2014 at 18:37.
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Old November 6, 2014, 08:37   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kzer_za View Post
1. Make the 100' forge guards weaker. Some characters have a really hard time handling three white wolves or an out-of-control green worm pack, for example. A strong group of guards can kill even a Noldor with some builds, and I'm sure it's worse for the challenge races. Maybe you're supposed to adapt to this and skip the forge, but that can ruin some characters in a way that goes beyond typical roguelike luck. If an archer can't grab an early longbow because it's too dangerous he'll probably find another bow soon, but who knows when a smith will get another forge? A slightly weaker mix of enemies would be good. Like maybe a white wolf and some brown wolves instead of three white wolves.
So as a constant player of smiths & some one who has been bashing their head a couple of times against the guardian problem I think I may of found an answer. My attempt to thwart it today was ruined (by lack of white wolves). Here's the basic question: Do you actually have to fight the white wolves? If someone has managed the 1st forge as a pacifist I'd love to know. The basic idea consists of:

clear rest of level
peak in to forge using stealth mode
draw wolves out using noise (song or bashing doors)
contain or isolate/kill wolves using doors

Here is my failure/success. My basic feeling is if this character can manage the forge at 100' under optimal conditions, any sane build should manage to reliably do the forge:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=16932
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Old November 7, 2014, 03:27   #324
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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
So as a constant player of smiths & some one who has been bashing their head a couple of times against the guardian problem I think I may of found an answer. My attempt to thwart it today was ruined (by lack of white wolves). Here's the basic question: Do you actually have to fight the white wolves? If someone has managed the 1st forge as a pacifist I'd love to know. The basic idea consists of:

clear rest of level
peak in to forge using stealth mode
draw wolves out using noise (song or bashing doors)
contain or isolate/kill wolves using doors

Here is my failure/success. My basic feeling is if this character can manage the forge at 100' under optimal conditions, any sane build should manage to reliably do the forge:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=16932
I've done this before but it's unbelievably annoying, especially if any orcs come up stairs or whatever -- the wolf howls will attract them, and then they'll open the door while you're forging.
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Old November 7, 2014, 12:14   #325
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Yeah I knew it be annoying and fiddly. Still if a doriath can reach 13 jeweller by just silence/elbereth and dodge it may be an interesting attempt at a doriath artifact smith. I'll give it a go. Not sure silence & doors will be enough to vanish from the wolves. Probably as stupid as most of my ideas.
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Old November 7, 2014, 19:42   #326
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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Yeah I knew it be annoying and fiddly. Still if a doriath can reach 13 jeweller by just silence/elbereth and dodge it may be an interesting attempt at a doriath artifact smith. I'll give it a go. Not sure silence & doors will be enough to vanish from the wolves. Probably as stupid as most of my ideas.
So glad I don't bother with hardcore smithing anymore.
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Old November 7, 2014, 20:44   #327
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I like my hardcore smithing strategy; do it once decently, do it once really well, then never do it again.
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Old November 7, 2014, 21:12   #328
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Originally Posted by taptap View Post
So glad I don't bother with hardcore smithing anymore.
Tell me about it.

Anyway the above setup worked, sort of. I actually killed the 1st 2 white wolves - opened the door took a step & 1 was already awake. I didn't reach 13 smithing till after 2 items(horn of thunder, ring of protection) so could only manage a single ring of +2 accuracy. That said it worked in principle, I was able to vanish from the white wolf with song of silence & when I finished smithing & came back to him to shot him with the bow, he was siting there unwary.

Despite all this I actually agree with what kzer_za & locus were saying (page 29 for me). For 3 reasons:

1. The feanor is meant to be the beginner race & I could see a beginner struggling to do an artistry start - particularly with the worst possible forge: 3 or 4 white wolves + a staircase + an orc pack + a crebin or mold or worm mass + a blindness or confusion trap. (I'm not exaggerating, I've seen this sort of thing generated)

2. Balance wise your coming out behind not ahead doing an extreme smithing start

3. It's not actually stopping you dumping all your pts in smithing, it wouldn't surprise me if you can take 1 pt in song, take elbereth & do the forge with a doritath with enough care.

Edit: of course that would ruin the puzzle side of breaking the 1st forge as hard as you can.....

Edit 2: To me crebains are more an issue then white wolves. They're a little more luck dependent. A crebain is a non-issue if you find armour. At low melee/evasion/naked they're harder then white wolves.

Last edited by wobbly; November 9, 2014 at 11:48.
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Old November 7, 2014, 23:03   #329
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Yeah, smithing encourages a lot of sketchy decisionmaking allright.

My current smithing start is Feanor 2345,4300070 with Weaponsmith + Jewelry smithing a 2lb Bastard Sword and +2 Accuracy Rings in the vain hope of taking Artifice and smithing a +3 Hammer of armorsmithing (with danger) at the next forge. Usually dies horribly halfway to Song of Mastery but hey, saving xp on skipping enchantment amirite?

Last edited by Infinitum; November 8, 2014 at 13:32.
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Old November 8, 2014, 18:33   #330
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A quick question about stealth. Does a secret door count as a door or a wall for stealth? - To clarify: If I need to find a secret door to find the stairs, does making noise to attract enemies on the other side work?

Edit: A slight annoyance with stealth. "The wolf stirs". There are 2 wolves & I'd like to kill the 1 that's "waking" (I'm assuming it's more alert rather than it's just failing a check to become alert). Which wolf is stirring?

Edit 2: When easterling archers changed to long bows was there monster memory not changed? I'm looking at longbow (+8, 1d7), I've also seen this on the unique cat archer

Last edited by wobbly; November 9, 2014 at 15:26.
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