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Old August 10, 2014, 22:20   #11
Estie
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Originally Posted by Ende View Post
Thanks ill turn it on when i reroll my next character





I must say that i dont like the sound of that direction at all... removes the D&D culture from the game and replaces it with the modern-day console gaming mentality.

It took skill to manage the negative effects from items/potions/scrolls etc. Skill to manage your backpack, the stacks, the items, and decide what u carry to the surface to get checked out. Your rewards were worth the risks once u pulled out a superb bit of kit. <snip>
Only if for some reason you refuse to carry a stack of id scrolls or staff of id when recalling down. While removing the ability to id in the dungeon might have some potential for upping the player skill requirement, identifying things with device or spell has always been possible (in good D&D fashion), so I dont see what you mean here.
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Old August 10, 2014, 22:30   #12
Malak Darkhunter
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Originally Posted by Ende View Post
Its not an issue of money... it was the challenge i enjoyed... cherrypicking what to keep and what to throw away. Loads of items u didnt know if they r magical. The Wisdom stat was more relevant.




That sounds like a console gamer to me! lol

Well the realism of D&D gave the player the challenge of several possible ways to ID the item, all of them took effort and skill. Now it looks to me like u just stand still for a few turns till your 'wisdom' gives u the examination.

And to get the exact stats u just give the item to a shopkeeper.

All of this takes loads away from the games immersion. In the old game the shopkeepers were relevant and now theyve been reduced to examination locations.

Like i said above, forcing the player to just one linear way of playing loses some of what was great about Angband imo

Moria/Angband was never based off of D@D, it is D@D like but very different and was never intended to be the same..I started playing Moria 1988, and a buggy version at that, and then picked up Angband a little after Angband 2.4 frog-knows started..it's been a long time.

You might try one of my favorites Sangband 1.0.0...it is last version developed bt Leon Marrick, a great contributor who had a wonderful vision for the game..It is very hard, and based off of Angband 2.8.3. In that verion you have no immediate ID, storekeepers actually mean something as you can invest your money in the store to get them to stock better items, there is no birth-no-selling option, and there is no no preserve mode either I think. Perception is a skill that gives hints to what an un-Id item actually is and gets better the more skill points you put into it.

Anyway give that one a try it's 1 of the hardest variants around, with lots of Leons Wicked tricks to kill a character.
The only other Developer that likes ways to punish you is Nick MCconnel, author of FAangband, a very good variant. And Nick shows the player no mercy either, so give that one a try as well.
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Old August 10, 2014, 22:33   #13
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Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Only if for some reason you refuse to carry a stack of id scrolls or staff of id when recalling down. While removing the ability to id in the dungeon might have some potential for upping the player skill requirement, identifying things with device or spell has always been possible (in good D&D fashion), so I dont see what you mean here.
I used all of those methods too... now those methods dont seem very relevant.

Now u know within 30seconds of picking up an items if its magical or not. U know very quickly if its worth keeping or not. Thats where the skill and immersion has been dumbed down, and where the D&D feel has been removed.

The decision making the player made when an item could be cursed or mega-cool made Angband runs interesting and exciting. Now theres no risk to cursing and the properties r discovered so fast...
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Old August 10, 2014, 22:45   #14
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Originally Posted by Ende View Post
I used all of those methods too... now those methods dont seem very relevant.

Now u know within 30seconds of picking up an items if its magical or not. U know very quickly if its worth keeping or not. Thats where the skill and immersion has been dumbed down, and where the D&D feel has been removed.

The decision making the player made when an item could be cursed or mega-cool made Angband runs interesting and exciting. Now theres no risk to cursing and the properties r discovered so fast...
There are still some around in modern Angband.....But the beauty of Sangband is that there are hidden curses..check them out.
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Old August 10, 2014, 23:06   #15
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Originally Posted by Ende View Post
I used all of those methods too... now those methods dont seem very relevant.

Now u know within 30seconds of picking up an items if its magical or not. U know very quickly if its worth keeping or not. Thats where the skill and immersion has been dumbed down, and where the D&D feel has been removed.

The decision making the player made when an item could be cursed or mega-cool made Angband runs interesting and exciting. Now theres no risk to cursing and the properties r discovered so fast...
There is a simple, IŽd even call it dumb, definitely not skill involving in any way, shape or form, algorithm for old Angband:

Id the first flavours by selling to a vendor. Once money is plenty, start identifying them.
With armor/weapon, carry everything till pseudo-id kicks in (yes, mage has bad pseudo id but gets the spell early). Once that has happened, id it if it has potential to be an upgrade, discard otherwise. This last step requires meta-game knowledge.

If you find a sophisticated, skillfull way to extract information by other means: congratulations, you just saved the cost of an id scroll.

edit: mistakenly called flavours flags.

Last edited by Estie; August 10, 2014 at 23:37.
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Old August 10, 2014, 23:39   #16
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Originally Posted by Estie View Post
There is a simple, IŽd even call it dumb, definitely not skill involving in any way, shape or form, algorithm for old Angband:

Id the first flags by selling to a vendor. Once money is plenty, start identifying them.
With armor/weapon, carry everything till pseudo-id kicks in (yes, mage has bad pseudo id but gets the spell early). Once that has happened, id it if it has potential to be an upgrade, discard otherwise. This last step requires meta-game knowledge.

If you find a sophisticated, skillfull way to extract information by other means: congratulations, you just saved the cost of an id scroll.
Its called character building.

The old way appears to be more about developing your character, training him, building a knowledge of the items (and the creatures). So if he came across the same kind of thing again he would know it and be able to identify it himself. But the realism was all about discovering something for the first time... the headscratching decision of what u do with an unexamined item.

To me that just seems more in line with the immersion old Angband was trying to achieve. That adventuring feel that u were in a real fantasy world.

Having fantasy shopkeepers who both buy and sell is also more immersive imo.

If theres an issue of gaining too much gold too early in the game then cap the gold that each vendor has in his pocket, the same as Skyrim has. That would limit the amount of items u can sell.

I guess im just surprised at the change to the game since i last played it. It appears to have gone down a different road than i expected...
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Old August 10, 2014, 23:58   #17
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I call it replay value.

What you describe is exciting the first few times you play the game, and for nostalgia if you return after 10 years. For people like me who have been playing on and off for all this time, other things have become more important I guess.

That being said, I am not completely happy with "no selling" shops either (but in a minority there, if amount of posts on the topic is any indicator).

At the root of the issue is, I think, the fact that the same procedures are used to get knowledge of flavours and individual items.

Gaining knowledge of a flavour is game changing and limited by the (small) amount of flavours - requiring some puzzlework to attain it can be enjoyable. Requiring the same puzzlework for every single chainmail you find can quickly turn into a nightmare.
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Old August 11, 2014, 01:10   #18
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Nostalgia and flavour are important for a game you play once (AAA games).

Solid gameplay mechanics and streamlined/'no annoyances/tedious aspects' design are necessary for a game that you play again and again forever (Roguelikes)
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Old August 11, 2014, 01:54   #19
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Originally Posted by Ende View Post
Its called character building.

The old way appears to be more about developing your character, training him, building a knowledge of the items (and the creatures). So if he came across the same kind of thing again he would know it and be able to identify it himself. But the realism was all about discovering something for the first time... the headscratching decision of what u do with an unexamined item.
So which do you find more immersive: paying to identify an unknown potion (or selling it to a shopkeeper to identify it), or trying the potion out and observing its effects? The latter method is how many potions are identified in modern Angband, and it would have been totally unthinkable when there were still Potions of Weakness, Potions of Clumsiness, Potions of Death, etc. in the game.
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Old August 11, 2014, 01:59   #20
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I play 3.0.6 if I want to play a Vanilla experience that doesn't require me to learn anything new. Others will have their own favorite versions, but if you are looking for an Angband variation that won't throw curveballs at an old timer, or at most, only a few at you, then 3.0.6 is probably the newest version I'd recommend.

I played Moria too, but I only played V between 2.8 -> 3.0.6, so it's possible even 3.0.6 is too new fangled!
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