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Old October 27, 2019, 19:53   #221
Pete Mack
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@Derakon--
Yep, it was always useless as a paladin spell, except for chars with bad melee. But for priests, it makes a real difference: with PfE and weak healing spells, you can take on huge mobs of trolls with a 1-blow character.
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Old October 27, 2019, 23:05   #222
bron
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
About the only scenario in which I can conceive of Protection from Evil being helpful is when fighting an orc unique in the earlyish game.
I agree that the "earlyish" game is the place where this prayer is useful. But I wouldn't dismiss it quite so flippantly. Personally, I find the prayer very very useful for priests struggling to get down to stat gain depths. OOD is very powerful, but you don't yet have the SP to use it too much, and you're still only getting one blow with your melee weapon. And you'll encounter a pack of Trolls, or a tribe of Uruks, or an Orc unique, almost every level from DL15 - DL30. PFE makes a world of difference.

To use a totally unfair and invalid comparison, "Magic Missile" is only really useful in the early game, but Mages would never make it to the later game without it.
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Old October 28, 2019, 01:37   #223
archolewa
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I agree that the "earlyish" game is the place where this prayer is useful. But I wouldn't dismiss it quite so flippantly. Personally, I find the prayer very very useful for priests struggling to get down to stat gain depths.
True, and I used it quite a bit in my 4.1 priest win, but it's just taking up space in the *paladin* spell list, which is what my criticism was aimed at.

I think leaving it as-is for priests is fine. But paladins should either have it replaced with something else (like temporary armor resistance), or given some sort of paladin-only tweak. I like Derakon's mobile-glyph of warding idea. Thematically, the paladin could be inscribing the glyph on his shield.
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Old October 29, 2019, 01:30   #224
DavidMedley
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Smite Evil

While we're on Paladin, what about Smite Evil? I may not understand it completely, but it seems completely useless. Get it in 4th holy book (Paly's 3rd) and can cast at CL 25 for 20 mana. Gives your weapon a temporary x2 mult against evil, right? But this is not cumulative with any brands? I can't picture a Paladin ever having a weapon at CL 25 that doesn't x2 already. My CL31 Paladin has Prot from Evil on *always* but never Smite Evil.

If I'm under-selling it, let me know.
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Old October 29, 2019, 01:36   #225
Derakon
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Brands and slays never stack; they'd be ridiculously overpowered if they did. The utility of Smite Evil depends on whether you want to use a weapon that has big dice but doesn't have useful brands/slays. That's pretty niche but not so much that I can declare a priori that it's useless.
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Old October 29, 2019, 02:17   #226
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when it says Brands, it actually means any multiplier, right? So Extra Blow would be classed as a brand.
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Old October 29, 2019, 02:44   #227
DavidMedley
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
not so much that I can declare a priori that it's useless.
Well, I'm overstating it a bit in context of Protection from Evil being called "pretty much useless." I'd take PfE for sure over Smite Evil.

Last edited by DavidMedley; October 29, 2019 at 02:58.
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Old October 29, 2019, 04:34   #228
Derakon
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when it says Brands, it actually means any multiplier, right? So Extra Blow would be classed as a brand.
No. Brands and slays multiply the damage dealt by your damage dice on a per-blow basis when used against a monster that is susceptible to the brand/slay. You only get one multiplier this way; whichever one deals the most damage. So for example, a Dracolich (evil undead dragon) hit by a weapon with Slay Evil (x2), Slay Undead (x3), a firebrand (x3), and *Slay* Dragon (x5) would get an x5 multiplier.

Extra Blows just straight-up make you attack more, and therefore stack with brands/slays.
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Old October 29, 2019, 05:16   #229
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Originally Posted by DavidMedley View Post
While we're on Paladin, what about Smite Evil? I may not understand it completely, but it seems completely useless. Get it in 4th holy book (Paly's 3rd) and can cast at CL 25 for 20 mana. Gives your weapon a temporary x2 mult against evil, right? But this is not cumulative with any brands? I can't picture a Paladin ever having a weapon at CL 25 that doesn't x2 already. My CL31 Paladin has Prot from Evil on *always* but never Smite Evil.

If I'm under-selling it, let me know.
Aglarang. Glaive of Pain. There are others.
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Old October 29, 2019, 06:01   #230
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Aglarang. Glaive of Pain. There are others.
Granted. Am I alone, then, in thinking PfE has a lot more utility than Smite Evil?
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