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Old December 23, 2020, 13:11   #61
Selkie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
It doesnt carsh nor burn. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It has its fans, veterans or newbies. But it is different from what Angabnd has been for decades. If you want an action band, by all means go ahead, but please find your own name for it.
It's really not as different as you're suggesting. If you play blackguard by charging into every fight regardless then you're going to have short and very bloody games. It simply doesn't work.

Rather than a completely different playstyle I'd argue it's exactly the same detect, decide, fight or run mechanic as ever other character. In fact, warrior is much less dependent on detection and much more punchy than a blackguard.

To make an Angband variant just because one character doesn't use the rest command seems ridiculous. It would be like a variant for a warrior because they can't read books, or for the necromancer because they don't use light. Every class needs it's foibles, it's what makes vanilla interesting. I found in earlier versions of Angband that too many of the classes didn't feel distinct enough, now every class feels much more unique.
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Old December 23, 2020, 14:32   #62
Estie
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Its not the same thing as books vs no books. There are thousands of games out there that "reward risk taking", promote action as opposed to supposedly boring strategic play and "want to encourage players to do X". Few people play Angband; its a resort for those who do not enjoy the mainstream way.

Its not that one class is too much. Its that the design philosophy is different, and that leads to a different game if pursued further.

It has happened before: dianlo 1/2 -> diablo 3, everquest -> wow. Changes were made towards fast pace with emphasis on action and the original people who enjoyed the old playstyle were left looking for a new game. We are supposed to call our genre "classic roguelike" now, because some idiot had the great idea to use a name that was taken for a new genre.

If you make new stuff that splits the community, is it too much to ask to not take the name that stands for the old game ?
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Old December 23, 2020, 15:28   #63
Selkie
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But you're missing the main point. The playstyle of a blackguard isn't so different from any other character. You detect and decide. Too much is made of this "risk" element in the blackguard class. When you know what the risks are then you can make the appropriate considerations. The rewards can be high, like bloodlust, but I know what the risks are and I have to be ready for them. If I enter this bloodlust fight with five dragons what happens if I get slowed to -10, what happens if I get confused. I know what the risks are and I assess if they are worth it. This is Angband to me. There's no skill, just knowledge, experience and judgement.
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Old December 23, 2020, 17:26   #64
whartung
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it seems the issue with the BG, and I have not played one in earnest, is that it's a "momentum" build.

The entire complaint about resting is that the characters momentum (in this case perhaps manifest as spell points) is lost, and not only must it be rebuilt, it has to be maintained.

Done "right", a BG is stronger after a fight than before a fight.

This is definitely a different playstyle, but done right, it shouldn't matter.

We've all had situations after we've been in a fight, or run from a fight, where we're particularly weakened. If we could find a quiet corridor somewhere, we could heal up, power up, feed up, and jump back in to the fray.

If it's an especially bad situation, we're counting the turns for the WoR to kick in to take us safely home.

An especially cautious character Rests after every fight. "Why not", resting is "free". Why continue forward handicapped.

With a momentum build, that doesn't work. Here you're naturally weak and must engage, and continue to engage, to reach "peak power". There's a power up curve.

Now a BG has to make decisions. If they're ambushed by something powerful, other classes, being at "peak power" may well stand and fight. A BG needs to decide if they have enough power now to take on the creature, or do they need to run away, build power, and then return.

On the one hand, that leaves the fate of the BG to the will of the dungeon. If they leave, they have to hope they find an assortment of weaker creatures on which to power up.

But this is no different than any other character, it just happens at a different time. When a weakened player is ambushed, they run avoidance until they're strong enough to take on the monster (or they simply escape the level). A BG is no different. They're just weakened from the start and get stronger, rather than start strong and get weaker.

Arguably, the BG class is "unfair" in this regard, especially for any route that counts "rest" against a character. The longer the BG can maintain momentum, the more successful they become, charging from strength to strength.

We all hope to get in that zone where the character is self maintaining. Where just running from one room to another is enough to sustain the character and prepare them for the next fight, vs just resting in place. Health regen, SP regen, as well as simply not losing these powers in the first place.

The only way to succeed in this game is to avoid monsters. This game actively encourages staying out of combat by constantly offering up "impossible" situations. As long as the BG is not unusable when "fully rested", it should be fine.

I like combat, I want to bash monsters, I love wading in to vaults and rapidly transmuting 40 creatures in to a cavalcade of punctuation.

In the end, if it's balanced, it's just a game style.
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Old January 2, 2021, 22:57   #65
Capn_Carpaccio
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I just got my first win, it was a blackguard .. yay!
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=24167
I really enjoyed the blackguard! I found that speed was extra helpful for a blackguard, because the faster they go, the easier it is to maintain the deeper levels of bloodlust, (fewer game turns elapsed from one battle to the next) which means they get more blows per round from the bloodlust, on top of the raw benefit of the speed. Plus, more blows per round means more things killed, meaning more SPs, and more "forcefull blows" so there is a kind of virtuous cycle that works better the faster the character is.
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Old January 3, 2021, 03:45   #66
Egavactip
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I played a blackguard several times, until I got a win. Since then, though, I have felt no desire to play it again. I just don't think it works as a class, and it is not very interesting. I much prefer simply playing a fighter.
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