Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 8, 2012, 15:21   #1
fruviad
Scout
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: central ohio
Posts: 40
fruviad is on a distinguished road
Level feeling with 3.3.1?

I'm playing 3.3.1, and I just found the Phial of Galadrial laying on the floor at 1150'.

The level feeling, however, reports "...there are only scraps of junk here."

Surely an artifact should push the level feeling to better than scraps of junk?
fruviad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8, 2012, 17:11   #2
ghengiz
Adept
 
ghengiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Roaming in Terry Pratchett's Discworld
Posts: 178
ghengiz is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruviad View Post
I'm playing 3.3.1, and I just found the Phial of Galadrial laying on the floor at 1150'.

The level feeling, however, reports "...there are only scraps of junk here."

Surely an artifact should push the level feeling to better than scraps of junk?
generally speaking, yes.
but the phial can be found relatively easily at a much shallower depth (once I found it at 150' ), so it does not push the level feeling very much at 1150'
ghengiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 13:37   #3
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghengiz View Post
generally speaking, yes.
but the phial can be found relatively easily at a much shallower depth (once I found it at 150' ), so it does not push the level feeling very much at 1150'
In v4 the presence of any artifact causes a minimum level feeling of "you feel there may be something worthwhile here". There doesn't seem to be any controversy about this, so perhaps it will appear in 3.4
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 14:07   #4
PowerWyrm
Veteran
 
PowerWyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,417
PowerWyrm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruviad View Post
I'm playing 3.3.1, and I just found the Phial of Galadrial laying on the floor at 1150'.

The level feeling, however, reports "...there are only scraps of junk here."

Surely an artifact should push the level feeling to better than scraps of junk?
Level feelings are triggered in respect to item "value", as per "how much would I get from this object if I were selling it to a shop?" Since the Phial now sells for a few coins (thanks to the new pricing system), it is considered as "scrap of junk". Same happens with 99% of wearables now. You'll find out that almost all "superb" level feelings are now triggered by OoD non-wearable items like deep books.
__________________
PWMAngband variant maintainer - check http://powerwyrm.monsite-orange.fr (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!
PowerWyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 14:17   #5
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
Level feelings are triggered in respect to item "value", as per "how much would I get from this object if I were selling it to a shop?" Since the Phial now sells for a few coins (thanks to the new pricing system), it is considered as "scrap of junk". Same happens with 99% of wearables now. You'll find out that almost all "superb" level feelings are now triggered by OoD non-wearable items like deep books.
Is it that bad? I've toned down the values of the top-end non-wearables in v4 (things like scrolls of Acquirement were way out of kilter), but I hadn't realised that this was a major issue. Last time I checked, the prices of high-end wearables were in the five-digit range, much like those of high-end books and devices.
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 14:28   #6
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,566
Estie is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
Level feelings are triggered in respect to item "value", as per "how much would I get from this object if I were selling it to a shop?" Since the Phial now sells for a few coins (thanks to the new pricing system), it is considered as "scrap of junk". Same happens with 99% of wearables now. You'll find out that almost all "superb" level feelings are now triggered by OoD non-wearable items like deep books.

Really ? That explains alot. I must say I dont like it, as I dont really care how much an item sells for when judging a levels worthiness.

The phial should then be worth more than a !augmentation for example; at least with a warrior, Id pick phial over potion. Also, early game most characters prefer light weapons over heavy ones; while that changes come lategame, its bad that a dagger of frost will go unnoticed while a great hammer of frost will cause a feeling. Whats wrong with simply giving points for low egos (armor of res fire), high egos (of elvenkind) and artifacts ?
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 15:21   #7
PowerWyrm
Veteran
 
PowerWyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,417
PowerWyrm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Is it that bad? I've toned down the values of the top-end non-wearables in v4 (things like scrolls of Acquirement were way out of kilter), but I hadn't realised that this was a major issue. Last time I checked, the prices of high-end wearables were in the five-digit range, much like those of high-end books and devices.
The pricing system in current 3.4-dev is badly broken. Especially wearables. There's not enough emphasis on single properties and multiple properties that don't belong to the same category (an item with +1 to all stats will have a price boost, an item with +3 con, fa, res chaos will not...).
__________________
PWMAngband variant maintainer - check http://powerwyrm.monsite-orange.fr (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!
PowerWyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 15:47   #8
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Really ? That explains alot. I must say I dont like it, as I dont really care how much an item sells for when judging a levels worthiness.

The phial should then be worth more than a !augmentation for example; at least with a warrior, Id pick phial over potion. Also, early game most characters prefer light weapons over heavy ones; while that changes come lategame, its bad that a dagger of frost will go unnoticed while a great hammer of frost will cause a feeling. Whats wrong with simply giving points for low egos (armor of res fire), high egos (of elvenkind) and artifacts ?
That's much harder to maintain. If you determine power algorithmically, you can create or modify items to your heart's content and it will Just Work. If you need to update the algorithm to reflect something you've changed, it will be updated for all items.

If you determine power by values in edit files, then every time you create or modify something, you have to edit the values of everything that you've modified *and* everything whose relative value is affected by what you've modified.

Of course, if the algorithm is crap then you're no better off, hence the debate.
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 15:53   #9
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
The pricing system in current 3.4-dev is badly broken. Especially wearables. There's not enough emphasis on single properties and multiple properties that don't belong to the same category (an item with +1 to all stats will have a price boost, an item with +3 con, fa, res chaos will not...).
But an item with +3 CON, FA and rchaos will still fetch far more than the same item with +1 to all stats, so what's the problem? The boosts for related properties are to reflect the additional utility of covering whole sets of things with a single item (e.g. rbase, all sustains etc.). It's what makes Anarion correctly valued, and what makes armour of Resistance worth more than 4x armour of Resist Cold.

I think "badly broken" is unduly harsh, unless you are piqued about some specific changes since it was first introduced in 3.1.1. The one perennial problem with the algorithm has been pricing +speed properly, and this seems to have been addressed in v4 without too much controversy. (Speed power in v4 is linear at +20 per point, though prices are still quadratic.)

If you'd like to give me some specific examples of prices in the current dev version that you don't like, I'll happily see if I can improve things before 3.4 is released. "Pricing is broken for all wearables" is too generic for me to be able to deal with, I'm afraid.
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 16:04   #10
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,566
Estie is on a distinguished road
Hmm I see; the price is already assigned to an item, whereas a classification as "low ego" or "high ego" would have to be added.

In that case, if the price is really used as power value, wouldnt it be better to actually modify it to reflect the power ? Its not like the distribution of sell values is really important for game balance.

Some weird effects would occur; for example, adamantite plate mail should probably get a negative value, but I could live with that.
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[3.3.0] Delayed level feeling lost after save/load Bee Vortex Vanilla 6 August 12, 2011 10:20
RNG feeling sorry? Timo Pietilš AAR 4 January 29, 2011 00:22
You have a good feeling... Maupin Vanilla 9 August 22, 2009 11:35
Music:One MIDI file for every level feeling - can it be done?? Nemesis Development 6 July 26, 2009 17:09
messages with feeling Faust Vanilla 5 April 30, 2007 04:00


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.