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Old July 1, 2010, 22:14   #41
Hindered
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Hey, I'm watching almost every game and I'm supporting my country's squad (Brazil).

Atriel! It's nice to see another brazilian here, but I have to disagree with you in some points
I like to watch the games and everytime I talk about how much I like soccer someone come and say that I'm alienated and start talking about politics. Here in Brazil we got some kind of pseudo-ideology that says that I'm not supposed to like the World Cup because of some previous bad governament that used what we do better to explore its own popularity. This makes me feel really bad because I really love the country where I live and people say that brazilians are patriots only when the topic is soccer.

And offside is not a stupid rule :( And it always existed!
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Old July 2, 2010, 04:27   #42
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The notion of being offsides, isn't stupid, but I don't like soccer's interpretation. Hockey's definition of the offside violation happens *only* at the blue line, and that's something I'd like to see...say, offside doesn't apply inside the 15 meter area, which is the outer bound of the penalty box.

I'd love to see a game without the offside rule altogether, too, just because it would be interesting to see how much it might open things up. However, I can also see where it might be too much.

What I've found most objectionable, tho, has been the *badly* missed calls, and FIFA's adamant, almost strident, refusals to address the issues. Altho they *did* say they'd reconsider goal-line cameras. Maybe. Reminds me of baseball; anyone who watched the Tigers' Galarraga lose a perfect game to a very poor call (and after a *great* catch to get the first out in the 9th) is likely, like me, REALLY sensitized to that kind of thing. And terrible ball/strike calls, including one that cost a game. Baseball fought against this for YEARS...it now has limited replays which are only possible in very, very narrow situations...and we see they don't necessarily work. So a goal-line-only camera (to fix situations like the denied goal in Germany-England) would only fix a few problems. The NFL has a replay system which was initially fairly flawed, but is now...well, not perfect, but better. (If the whistle blows, nothing AFTER that can be reviewed. This has created some ugly situations, but it's also a critical "this play is OVER, so STOP" signal.)

I think soccer could benefit from something like the NFL model of coaches' challenge, *at least* at the World Cup itself. But I doubt it will happen.

And I'm rooting for all 4 South American teams to make the semis...just because.
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Old July 2, 2010, 06:06   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiburon Silverflame View Post
What I've found most objectionable, tho, has been the *badly* missed calls, and FIFA's adamant, almost strident, refusals to address the issues. Altho they *did* say they'd reconsider goal-line cameras.
With modern tech you could have those cameras embedded in goal frame in top corners and waist-line. Just make referee to stop play in any unclear situation and quickly check the camera. Takes about 10-15 secs tops (referee runs to side, checks the camera, calls goal or not). If even camera can't tell then dismiss the goal.

Luckily this sort of things are rare in football. What is much worse is outright bad offside calls. I think ruling is that in unclear situation rule to favor of attacking team, but referees are humans and humans make errors. You can't get perfect human referee in any sports. Also for referee point of view football offside rule is pretty d*mn hard to get perfectly right every time. You would need to look at two quite far away place at once and also wait and see if that player in offside actually plays the ball. It's easy from TV and freeze frame, but running in side of the field it isn't that easy. There might be player blocking the view to exact moment of the kick and when attacker is running to goal and defender is moving at opposite direction it requires a really good eye to catch if the attacker was actually in offside or not at the moment of the kick. All those things considered it is surprising that they have made as little errors as they had.
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Old July 2, 2010, 06:41   #44
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
With modern tech you could have those cameras embedded in goal frame in top corners and waist-line. Just make referee to stop play in any unclear situation and quickly check the camera. Takes about 10-15 secs tops (referee runs to side, checks the camera, calls goal or not). If even camera can't tell then dismiss the goal.
There is no need to manually check anything. There are systems available that would automatically send a signal to the referee when there is a goal in less than a second.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/10435958.stm
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Old July 2, 2010, 07:05   #45
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There is no need to manually check anything. There are systems available that would automatically send a signal to the referee when there is a goal in less than a second.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/10435958.stm
Chip in the ball did come into my mind too, but I thought that it would affect the ball handling. Apparently it doesn't. That would be pretty fail-proof system to detect goals.

Offside is still a problem because it requires judgement does the person in offside play the ball (does he affect the game, block the defender etc.) and that's why it isn't solvable with IT and sensors. Not yet anyway.
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Old July 2, 2010, 08:06   #46
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Originally Posted by Tiburon Silverflame View Post
I'd love to see a game without the offside rule altogether, too, just because it would be interesting to see how much it might open things up. However, I can also see where it might be too much.
Field hockey (very like soccer, but with sticks and a small hard ball) has fairly recently abandoned its offside rule, which IMHO is a great improvement. It would be interesting to see how the corresponding change would go in soccer.
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Old July 2, 2010, 09:07   #47
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Field hockey (very like soccer, but with sticks and a small hard ball)
Using that as reference to what is "very like soccer" american football and rugby are close to football as well.

BTW why do people in US call that grass-field played handball "football"?
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Old July 2, 2010, 09:41   #48
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Using that as reference to what is "very like soccer" american football and rugby are close to football as well.
Field hockey has the same scoring system, side and end lines play similar roles, team sizes are the same.

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BTW why do people in US call that grass-field played handball "football"?
OK, simplistic history:
Football largely started in Britain; after some chaos, two competing codes emerged - Association football ("soccer") and Rugby football ("rugger"). Rugger's most direct descendant is rugby union, but rugby league and american/candian football are also basically from rugger. Gaelic football and Australian football are not really descendants of either, but have been influenced by the other codes.

Interestingly, these last two don't have an offside rule; I have heard this nicely described as like the difference between trench warfare and guerilla warfare.
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Old July 2, 2010, 10:25   #49
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OK, simplistic history:
Football largely started in Britain;
Which "football" you refer here?

I think football has been played since stone-ages in variety of different cultures. Modern version probably has British roots, but some kind of feet-played ballgame has been around at least 4000 years, probably a lot longer.

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after some chaos, two competing codes emerged - Association football ("soccer") and Rugby football ("rugger"). Rugger's most direct descendant is rugby union, but rugby league and american/candian football are also basically from rugger.
I'm more interested about why american football is called football when you play it mainly with your hands. "soccer" and "rugger" don't have word "foot" in them. Is it just ancient descendant of the original name where ball was played with your feet?
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Old July 2, 2010, 10:41   #50
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä View Post
Which "football" you refer here?

I think football has been played since stone-ages in variety of different cultures. Modern version probably has British roots, but some kind of feet-played ballgame has been around at least 4000 years, probably a lot longer.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I guess Britain was where the systematic codifying of rules and forming of organised competition started in the mid-1800s (as far as I know, which may not be very far...).

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I'm more interested about why american football is called football when you play it mainly with your hands. "soccer" and "rugger" don't have word "foot" in them. Is it just ancient descendant of the original name where ball was played with your feet?
Well, soccer started as slang for "Association football" and rugger was slang for "Rugby football". All the members of the rugby branch have more passing by hand than by foot - although I think the American branch is the most extreme. I think this is partly a consequence of the stricter offside, where for the most part players are required to be behind the ball.
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