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Old August 18, 2014, 08:47   #11
wobbly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap View Post
I like the proposal to make the two-handing bonus of +2 a strength bonus, I remember making the same proposal somewhere in fact. (There already are modifiers that work as hidden strength bonus in the game, e.g. knockback with a two-handed weapon.) It also would achieve what the old system (strength bonus limit 1lb and 1.5lb for two-handed) aimed for = with a certain high strength wielding a bastard sword two handed does not give benefits anymore, without the downside of the old system, where possibly you would do less damage two-handed at one point.
I'd be mostly fine with this, though I'll point out this is a slight nerf to str 3 dwarfs with the battle-axe(average weight 4.5lbs) & makes momentum a near requirement for charging with a bastard sword. Chances are I still wouldn't use a greatsword unless its a slay I lack in a 1-hander/hand & half. It'd probably just nerf hand & a half weapons, & people will still ignore greatswords.

Maybe the problem is more with momentum then the weapons themselves. I've always wondered why momentum favours light weapons in the 1st place. It sounds like something that should favour a heavy blade. I never played before it was introduced, is it really necessary for charge? Surely charge still gives a bonus to hit/critical on light blades.
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Old August 18, 2014, 12:16   #12
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Originally Posted by taptap View Post
Bad idea! With critical hits what weapon has more dice - a subtle 2 lb longsword or a 6 lb greatsword? It would completely wreck the combat system, instead of hard choices you could always just collect the strictly better (light and +more) weapon.
Hence why it would need to be recalibrated. Re: your example, that would depend on the enemy's dodge score/potential crit resistance (again, it isn't like the critical hit numbers cannot be tweaked to account for 4-strength elves toting 1d9 daggers). What hard choices are you referring to? All other numbers being equal, the current system already encourages the player to go with the lighter weapon and Momentum/Rapid Attack to handle surplus strength past the early game simply because having more than 5 unbuffed strength is rare unless one smiths for it.

Also, one of the main points of simpliying the strength system would be 6lb swords being superflous (unless this drawback would be balanced otherwise, eg Calris). I'd rather have a hard time choosing between .5-3lb weapons than the current system of everything beyond 4lb being a liability in the grand scheme of things.
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Old August 18, 2014, 12:30   #13
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Having two handing be a str modifier looks like the best solution proposed so far. If it needs to go further, here's some extra brainstorm.

Diminishing returns for str on weapons. It sounds like a lot of the problem is that weapons don't need to be heavy enough. Greatswords are 7 lbs, greataxes are 10, mattocks are 13. We need to use that weight.

.5 for first point, 1 for the second, 1.5 for the third, 2 for the fourth, etc.
So that's .5 lbs for 1 str, 1.5 lbs for 2 str, 3 lbs for 3 str, 5 lbs for 4 str, 7.5 lbs for 5 str.

It makes momentum less tempting for light weapons too, since it'd be easier to just take the minus to crit from a slightly heavier weapon comparatively.
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Old August 18, 2014, 12:54   #14
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Originally Posted by Infinitum View Post
Hence why it would need to be recalibrated. ... I'd rather have a hard time choosing between .5-3lb weapons than the current system of everything beyond 4lb being a liability in the grand scheme of things.
Momentum strengthened medium weight weapons, now I don't get why you propose to shift balance towards even lighter weapons as a remedy to make heavier weapons completely unplayable. Instead of weighing critical hits against strength bonus e.g. in a bow as is, you would just take your ultralight fibre-glass bow every time regardless how strong you are. Strength equipment would never be left behind and no one would ever feel again the joy of playing a strong char with a war hammer (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15180) or a 0-strength fencer... that would be a sad game.

Last edited by taptap; August 18, 2014 at 13:02.
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Old August 18, 2014, 13:00   #15
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These strength ideas are neat but I think they're barking up the wrong tree. Even if the heavy weapons were attractive for damage reasons, the thing that makes 1H so good is the shield slot has really amazing stuff that can go in there.

Momentum makes it even worse because you're not even forced to make the hard tradeoff between hands and damage if you don't want to. However, in a short game where you can't control what awesome stuff you find by grinding more, momentum is nice to have so that one can play reactively. (It also doesn't help that there are so many incredibly good 1H & 1.5H artefact swords + axes that seem to drop with very high frequency, whereas the greatswords and other hugeweapon arts all seem to be more rare and more tradeoffy. <3 calris <3 burkfelek <3 nogrod)
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Old August 18, 2014, 15:21   #16
bagori nd
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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
I'd be mostly fine with this, though I'll point out this is a slight nerf to str 3 dwarfs with the battle-axe(average weight 4.5lbs) & makes momentum a near requirement for charging with a bastard sword. Chances are I still wouldn't use a greatsword unless its a slay I lack in a 1-hander/hand & half. It'd probably just nerf hand & a half weapons, & people will still ignore greatswords.
I think the "momentum as a near requirement" result is all to the good. Keep in mind that momentum does cost an ability slot; the fact that greatswords would let you take full advantage of your Str without it is a nontrivial advantage.

Quote:
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These strength ideas are neat but I think they're barking up the wrong tree. Even if the heavy weapons were attractive for damage reasons, the thing that makes 1H so good is the shield slot has really amazing stuff that can go in there.

Momentum makes it even worse because you're not even forced to make the hard tradeoff between hands and damage if you don't want to.
If you combine the strength idea with a change to momentum like the one I sketched in the other post, you'd help solve this problem too.

Maybe that other idea was too complicated, though. Maybe it'd be better if momentum were just capped at +2 effective Str at most. I think it needs to do that much because otherwise deathblades and 2 lb. longswords would suck. But there's no real need for it to do more.

If you lowered the average weight of bastard swords and greatswords by a pound apiece (to 3 lb. and 6 lb. respectively), that'd help a lot too.

Also, you know Sil better than me, but is the shield slot that big a deal? Outside of artefacts you get some protection or a resistance. In late game the resistance is important. But in mid game especially, marginal damage is huge in Sil because of enemy protection. The extra punch from a big two-handed weapon can double your damage output, sometimes more. That's usually worth the trade.

Of course, there's still taptap's idea of two-handed-only egos, and I'm all for more (and more common) 2h weapon artefacts. (One time someone mentioned making Narsil a light greatsword, for instance, since Elendil was so tall.)
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Old August 18, 2014, 15:50   #17
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Maybe that other idea was too complicated, though. Maybe it'd be better if momentum were just capped at +2 effective Str at most. I think it needs to do that much because otherwise deathblades and 2 lb. longswords would suck. But there's no real need for it to do more.
This is all the wrong direction, how is limiting momentum to help only light blades improve heavy ones? (Similar with ideas to reduce returns on weight.) And no, deathblades don't suck - try subtlety, critical hits with d11 hurt. (If you want to reduce momentum effect and help heavier weapons then do it the other way, you get e.g. additional strength bonus for each lb of weight above 3 lb.)

I am all for making two-handing a one-and-half-hand weapon a strength bonus and reintroduce weight requirements for some abilities, likely only knockback, by limiting the strength for the STR/CON contest to the effective strength bonus you get with your weapon (no knockback with a dagger). Both would help only the heavier weapons, but not too much as well.

Last edited by taptap; August 18, 2014 at 16:05.
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Old August 18, 2014, 16:15   #18
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Another idea, if you put a 2hnder mastery at the same position in the tree as momentum that halved weight for criticals on true 2hnders that'd put a bastard sword with momentum & a greatsword with 2hnder mastery as around equal without a shield. Could be interesting with a mithril greatsword where it would match a 2lb longsword w/momentum except for -1 accuracy, no shield & an extra damage dice.

Edit: Just thinking about it a mithril longsword with momentum & subtlety would still be outclassing this, though it's an extra ability there.

Last edited by wobbly; August 18, 2014 at 16:36.
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Old August 18, 2014, 23:12   #19
bagori nd
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This is all the wrong direction, how is limiting momentum to help only light blades improve heavy ones? (Similar with ideas to reduce returns on weight.) And no, deathblades don't suck - try subtlety, critical hits with d11 hurt. (If you want to reduce momentum effect and help heavier weapons then do it the other way, you get e.g. additional strength bonus for each lb of weight above 3 lb.)
Fair enough on deathblades. But the point doesn't extend to mithril longswords. These need to be potentially excellent weapons, if only for lore reasons. And they wouldn't be without momentum. (Fingolfin had more than 2 Str, and used it.)

Anyway, a 2-point cap on momentum wouldn't help only light blades. It would help heavy blades just as much, and about as much as it does now. Only in very special cases do characters normally apply more than 7 or so Str on a given attack: the proposed momentum would benefit a 3 Str raging elf charging with a 5 or 6 lb. sword to exactly the same extent. What it wouldn't do, in conjunction with the strength bonus change, is let that elf do as much damage with a 4 lb. bastard sword.

edit: and keep in mind that of the heavy weapons, only greatswords have issues. as far as I can tell axes and hammers are pretty much where they should be.

Last edited by bagori nd; August 19, 2014 at 00:36.
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Old August 19, 2014, 03:05   #20
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You could make momentum double the effective weight of the weapon in regards to crits.
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