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Old August 30, 2008, 19:08   #1
Irashtar
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Merge in 3.0.9e changes with dev.

I just discovered the 'unofficial' 3.0.9e version of v (http://rephial.org/downloads/3.0/angband-3.0.9e-win.zip), and I'm pretty impressed by the quality of the changes, with the possible exception of closing stores to selling, but I haven't played enough to make a full opinion, perhaps make this a birth option, linked with the greater gold in the dungeon, some pack rats like to collect stuff to sell. :P
A majority of the changes are effectively UI/efficiency only, or long held gripes fixed by most variants, I think they should be patched into the main trunk ASAP.
In the meantime, All I need is 3.0.9e with weapon stats added, and This would be the best scoop of vanilla Angband to date, and I've tasted a lot in my time.
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Old August 31, 2008, 02:21   #2
aeneas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irashtar View Post
I just discovered the 'unofficial' 3.0.9e version of v (http://rephial.org/downloads/3.0/angband-3.0.9e-win.zip), and I'm pretty impressed by the quality of the changes, with the possible exception of closing stores to selling, but I haven't played enough to make a full opinion, perhaps make this a birth option, linked with the greater gold in the dungeon, some pack rats like to collect stuff to sell. :P
A majority of the changes are effectively UI/efficiency only, or long held gripes fixed by most variants, I think they should be patched into the main trunk ASAP.
In the meantime, All I need is 3.0.9e with weapon stats added, and This would be the best scoop of vanilla Angband to date, and I've tasted a lot in my time.
Hmm- if I'm not mistaken that is actually closer to an early WIP variant than a development version of V. The name of the file is a bit confusing if you just stumble across it. PowerDiver can probably fill you in a bit more on that. I've only played a game or two with it, quite a few months ago, but it was definitely fun. Many of the changes are probably a bit radical for V though.
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Old August 31, 2008, 05:09   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irashtar View Post
I just discovered the 'unofficial' 3.0.9e version of v (http://rephial.org/downloads/3.0/angband-3.0.9e-win.zip), and I'm pretty impressed by the quality of the changes, with the possible exception of closing stores to selling, but I haven't played enough to make a full opinion, perhaps make this a birth option, linked with the greater gold in the dungeon, some pack rats like to collect stuff to sell. :P
A majority of the changes are effectively UI/efficiency only, or long held gripes fixed by most variants, I think they should be patched into the main trunk ASAP.
In the meantime, All I need is 3.0.9e with weapon stats added, and This would be the best scoop of vanilla Angband to date, and I've tasted a lot in my time.
Unless I'm mistaken that would be Eddie Grove's unofficial variant. You may wish to read more about it on this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...dd862959532269

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Old August 31, 2008, 05:40   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irashtar View Post
with the possible exception of closing stores to selling, but I haven't played enough to make a full opinion, perhaps make this a birth option, linked with the greater gold in the dungeon, some pack rats like to collect stuff to sell.
In my variant, DaJAngband, I used an early version of that patch in it and made selling to stores a birth option connected to the bigger gold piles.
see the link in my sig for more info.
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My old variant DaJAngband:
http://sites.google.com/site/dajangbandwebsite/home (defunct and so old it's forked from Angband 3.1.0 -I think- but it's probably playable...)
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Old August 31, 2008, 06:28   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas View Post
Hmm- if I'm not mistaken that is actually closer to an early WIP variant than a development version of V. The name of the file is a bit confusing if you just stumble across it. PowerDiver can probably fill you in a bit more on that. I've only played a game or two with it, quite a few months ago, but it was definitely fun. Many of the changes are probably a bit radical for V though.
I meant it to be a collection of my *less* radical ideas, that I thought at least had a chance of making it into V proper. That version has the advantage of not having any important bugs, but I have moved far since then. Is stacking wands without id radical? That's the approximate level of "radical" for most of the changes.

The "no selling" is truly radical, but there has not been a single person, ever, who has tried it and reported [anywhere I read] that they think the game is better with selling. In my current version, I allow selling for 0 AU for id etc and that is still OK I guess if that's what it takes to get acceptance.

I was planning to make the code of production quality when I ported it to 3.1. There are things in 3.1 that will change various implementations, and it just seemed like a good idea way back when. Unfortunately, 3.1 is still not out, so I have been playing more and coding less, and when I code it is to add features rather than to clean up what I have already written.
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Old August 31, 2008, 08:57   #6
aeneas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
The "no selling" is truly radical, but there has not been a single person, ever, who has tried it and reported [anywhere I read] that they think the game is better with selling. In my current version, I allow selling for 0 AU for id etc and that is still OK I guess if that's what it takes to get acceptance.
Well, I tried it and I liked it. The only thing I'd say is that I did enjoy the selling game when I first started playing, and that that has been part of what gives the game its peculiar character for a long time. But, the selling game became a bigger minus than a plus for me a long time ago (and I never sell to the store for id, so I can't comment on that- I try things out until I can afford enough id to identify flavors.) I think you could make a very good argument that your patch is a better game. But it is a pretty radical departure, at least in that respect. I wouldn't complain if it were made standard, though I suspect there might be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth from other quarters.

At any rate, I might have misread the OP, but he seemed to be under the impression that your patch was an official development branch of V, which is understandable given the filename and the download location.
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Old August 31, 2008, 09:12   #7
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I know it's not official, What I'm saying is, a lot of the parts of this version are perfectly valid to Make official, at least as options, and getting another talent into helping would inject needed life into the UI developments. V is supposed to be the standard, basic game all the variants are compared to, yet many active variants have UI, if not leaps and bounds ahead, more than a modest number of hops and skips. meanwhile, All the active development seems to be going into the tedium of gameplay balancing (And breaking Fear ).

Edit before I post: It seems that in this version, Identify already *IDs artifacts, but the *ID scroll is still there, Am I missing something?

The full changelog, rearranged a bit for my commentary:
3.0.9e contains a number of changes, roughly in 4 categories.

Tedium and Notetaking
* Note temp resists under '@' on status screen
* Treat NO_FUEL as permanent lite on status screen
* Mark items for sale that are unaware [i.e. unidentified.]
usefulness arguable, but quite logical.
* Change !selfKnowledge to *IDENTIFY all items wielded
interesting change, useful perchance during post-vault sorting, otherwise neglegible with the death of *ID.
* Give description of artifact activations without IDENT_MENTAL
Maybe, without *ID, minor either way, err on the side of niceness here I would think.
* Learn flavor when scroll of trap creation is read
Makes this scroll kind of nerfed, maybe if it ID'd after you found/triggered one of the new traps, but that sounds like might be a hard hack to write.
* Give free identify on non-jewelry that pseudos as average
Already done in the dev version.
* Point-based character generation equivalent to best available from autoroller
I think this is done in the dev version, 24 points to spend in an easier spread.
* New command to restock a store for the cost of all items for sale
Why not? Only thing with this one is, with 'no selling to stores' turned off, you could buy him out, make him restock for free, And sell the stuff back. Maybe make it a modest, fixed fee. Hey, it'll help limit townscumming in the midgame.
* Apply autoinscriptions to items learned by testing
This sounds like a bugfix.
* Show charges on aware wands and staves without identify
This erks me a little, but I can see the logic in it. Perhaps limit it in some way? only give this power to those with strong P-id, or give each class a different set of wands and staves 'attunment'.
* Merge unidentified wands and staves
Perfectly sensible when linked to the above, and something any poor early packrat wants.
IMHO, I've always wanted a wand stacking setup like:
y - 3 wands of bleach ( [3,6,12] charges)
Much more sensible, you leech the one closest to emptying, and that way, you'll soonest be able to lighten your load/recharge a wand as safe as possible. Makes Wand destruction more interesting too. Feel free to ignore me, I like sets too much as it is.

* Failed destruction or pseudo of artifact identifies it
This one I'm not sure about, in a way, it's realistic, it's kind of hard to not notice that dagger you picked up is made of fire, unless you pack it in next to your scrolls. but without *ID, this makes no need to identify artifacts at all. I feel a compromise would work great here, the pseudo-id could 'speak to you' the incomplete information, eg. only the info required to calculate damage, and save the rest for a full Identification.

Most of these are well thought out UI polish or a touch of gameplay sandpaper to get rid of the little rough spots that go along with trying to make the game more streamlined and balanced.

Show the Rules
* Show raw numbers rather than ratings on 'C' page
* Show energy rather than speed on 'C' page
Yes and Yes. option to change this would be fine, just like with the "Show in feet" option. One dislike here is that he seems to have removed the color from them, I would add that back in, to make it easier to tell relative goodness.
* Realize non-pseudoed wielded items average when anything pseudos
I thought when the P-id gets triggered, all equipment gets touched. Am I missing something here?
* Keep original names for randarts
Arguable. Some would want to know that they're wielding something that says what it does 'on the can' so to speak, others like the old names.


Remove Gameplay Effects from Identify
* Allow activation without identify
It's good, if a bit redundant. If you're wielding things hoping to find an activation to save you, you need to rethink things, but hey, if you're lucky and reckless, Who am I to complain? Just don't detail Activation effects until full ID.
* Stack identical objects even when not identified
Yes, but only for things with no []() modifications. two daggers that stack without ID are 4 out of 5 times, both average.
Misc
* Learn flavors that damage when thrown
Another minor bugfix.
* Rest with '|' to wait until either mana or hp are max
Point being..?
* Narya, Nenya, and Vilya unchanged in randarts
* Remove aggravation from randarts
Yes and yes, maybe limit aggro to uberartifacts, make it low probability, and the randart with that a bit more useful, to tempt the reckless.
* Armory sells cloaks
* Add ACTIVATE flag to objects that activate when omitted in artifact.txt
* Stores restock max items faster
No clear opinion, could go either way.
* Stolen gold is carried by thief
This has got to be the longest running grief about V. nearly Every one of his little brothers have this feature, including his cousin. (Nethack. ) It's time he got it. Perhaps make some monster that eats your savings, something it's obvious you won't get a refund from.

* Disallow selling items to stores
* Increase gold drops in the dungeon to partially mitigate no money from selling
The biggest change in this minor variant, Adding this as an Ironman option would make everyone happy, can never have too many options, this is supposed to be the burger king of computer games. Have it your way.

Squelch
* Differentiate quality squelch into subcategories
If this is not in V by 3.1 official, I will go mad. MAD. I'm tired of having to wait until every last piece of armour is Excellent before bumping up the Quality squelch.
* Allow quality squelching of lights
fits in with the above.
* Squelch oil like spikes
Huh?

* Allow squelching of unaware flavors
This I have to say no to. the point of only being able to squelch what you know is one of the few ways the game protects the newbies. unless it means you can squelch stuff your ancestors knew about, then all right then.
* Add permanent light to artifacts that otherwise would not be splendid
* Minor changes to a few standard artifacts to make them splendid
Perfectly fine, never can have too much light.
* Notice obvious effects when wielding unidentified objects
This is a nice touch.
* New pseudo level "Splendid" meaning obvious bonuses when wielded
* Keep track of items that have been wielded with "tried"
* Treat uncursed the same as cursed for quality squelch purposes
* Sort by name rather than SVAL in some squelch menus
These are okay, could go either way.
* Unsquelch flavors bought from a store
Another little bugfix.
* Treat weapons with base damage >= 15 as excellent when squelching by quality
Maybe make this adjustable.
* Allow pseudo on jewelry
Splendid: obvious bonuses when wielded
Excellent: elemental resists, FA, SI, regen
Good: plusses to hit/dam/AC


In conclusion, there's many gems here that deserve to be added to the beauty of this game, and some that need to be held up to the light and considered with a generous eye, and added to the reserve box of options to let the true fans admire at leisure.
In the meantime, a few UI things that the official dev have, that 309e have, and if someone could add them, It would be wonderful. I can wait very patiently for the major item changes, but not having the many great UI improvments in a stable Vanilla build is making me a little crazy.
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Old August 31, 2008, 09:30   #8
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Originally Posted by Irashtar View Post
Edit before I post: It seems that in this version, Identify already *IDs artifacts, but the *ID scroll is still there, Am I missing something?
Standard artifacts are fixed, so the "show the rules" principle means ordinary id should be enough.

Randarts and random powers [blessed weapons] and random high resists [elvenkind armor] require *ID, except for obvious powers such as ESP.
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Old August 31, 2008, 11:06   #9
Irashtar
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Standard artifacts are fixed, so the "show the rules" principle means ordinary id should be enough.

Randarts and random powers [blessed weapons] and random high resists [elvenkind armor] require *ID, except for obvious powers such as ESP.
I see. That makes perfect sense to me.
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Old August 31, 2008, 11:21   #10
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* Allow squelching of unaware flavors
This I have to say no to. the point of only being able to squelch what you know is one of the few ways the game protects the newbies. unless it means you can squelch stuff your ancestors knew about, then all right then.
I would hate to play without this.

Should you really have to id a clear potion before you can squelch clear potions?

If your priest puts on a bronze ring that reduces int by 2, should you really have to id it before you can squelch all bronze rings?

If a player playing a priest wants to squelch all int rings, does it hurt to specify that at the start? They won't disappear until you learn the flavor or squelch the flavor separately as above. Squelch only automates what the player could do for himself.
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