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Old August 23, 2018, 20:53   #11
wobbly
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The plants I just ignore with anything that can't kill them. They're free xp, but how much 5? 1? It doesn't take long to get to 1. They can be an interesting challenge for the pacifist but mostly they are just decoration. Ignore or kill, it doesn't really make much difference.
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Old August 23, 2018, 23:34   #12
Freeya
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I'm wondering if you improved Polearms too much? I'm currently wielding a 1d15 great spear of vanyar, as I lack a good one hander. It's 5.5 lb so with finesse I get crit if 10 over. If I use the Dagmar shortsword I have (1d8), even with subtlety, it's weaker. Crit if 5 over since its 2 lb. It's 1d19 vs 1d10 (I have 4 str). And the spear I could add charge, Polearm mastery, and impale to (I have none of those).

If I get 1-4, it's 1d19 vs 1d10. If 5-9, 1d19 vs 2d10. If 10-14, it's 2d19 vs 3d10. If 15-19, 2d19 vs 4d10.

Both have +2 melee bonus and 1 evasion, and +1 song and extra light. So there's no reason for me to use the artifact shortsword over the enchanted great spear.

I'd have to add rapid attack just to get the shortsword to compete (1d9 X2 vs 1d16 X2, which then favors the shortsword more on criticals a bit). But then if I add impale and Polearm mastery, the great spear will win again. With momentum gone, lighter weapons now suck. Subtlety is vastly superior to 2 handed if you exclude whatever enchantments the 2nd weapon has, so that doesn't help either.

If I switch to my longsword (2d8 with str), crit on +6 with subtlety. So 1-5, 2d8 vs 1d19. 6-9, 3d8 vs 1d19. 10-11, 3d8 vs 2d19. 12-17, 4d8 vs 2d19. 18-19, 5d8 vs 2d19. Longsword gets crushed (not to mention it loses 2 melee). A 2d6 2lb longsword (I don't have one), would be 1-4, 2d8 vs 1d19, 5-9, 3d8 vs 1d19, 10-14, 4d8 vs 2d19, 15-19, 5d8 vs 2d19. Better, but I'd still take the spear easily.

If I use my great sword 3d6, I lose 4 melee, same weight. So becomes 3d10. Realistically, it'd be -3 to 0, 0 vs 1d19, 1 -6, 3d10 vs 1d19, 7-9, 3d10 vs 2d19, 10-16, 4d10 vs 2d19. This is probably a toss up, although with a high enough melee bonus the spear will pull ahead. Again not including Polearm mastery, which gives the advantage to the spear.

Maybe I'm missing something, and I know abilities like cruel blow factor in as well, but for damage I'd take a spear.

I forgot to do a 1lb shortsword. 1-3, 1d9 vs 1d19. 4-7, 2d9 vs 1d19. 8-9, 3d9 vs 1d19. 10-11, 3d9 vs 2d19. 12-15, 4d9 vs 2d19. 16-19, 5d9 vs 2d19. This actually is about equal, until you throw in charge, impale, Polearm mastery.

I might consider changing subtlety to 3 points, and improving 2 handed fighting in some way as well (parry count for off hand too? Even though it's unrealistic).

Last edited by Freeya; August 23, 2018 at 23:48.
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Old August 23, 2018, 23:53   #13
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Another thought is make rapid attack not work for true 2 handed weapons (like great spears and great swords).
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Old August 24, 2018, 01:49   #14
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Have cleared a 600 with my newest char. Wielding that great spear I mentioned, hoping to get a good one handed sword artifact drop. I picked up subtlety and rapid attack (1d16 x2 is pretty nice). I'm lacking poison and cold resist which the lack of cold has almost killed me several times.

I picked up enchantment, I've still not found a staff of understanding (I've had very little luck finding any staves on this one).

Whirlwind attack is my next target, I'm curious to see how the newer version of it works. It'll be a bit though, since I need 5000 xp or so.

I've actually descended much faster than I had planned (2 stairs dropped me an extra depth too), so I've been quite lucky to live. Probably will slow down majorly now till I get more melee and resists.
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Old August 24, 2018, 02:10   #15
Quirk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeya View Post
I'm wondering if you improved Polearms too much? I'm currently wielding a 1d15 great spear of vanyar, as I lack a good one hander. It's 5.5 lb so with finesse I get crit if 10 over. If I use the Dagmar shortsword I have (1d8), even with subtlety, it's weaker. Crit if 5 over since its 2 lb. It's 1d19 vs 1d10 (I have 4 str). And the spear I could add charge, Polearm mastery, and impale to (I have none of those).

If I get 1-4, it's 1d19 vs 1d10. If 5-9, 1d19 vs 2d10. If 10-14, it's 2d19 vs 3d10. If 15-19, 2d19 vs 4d10.
Small note, you need to be 10.5 over so effectively 11, halves count.

If you're trying to engage in an extended battle with a 2lb shortsword and subtlety and don't have a huge +Melee advantage over your opponent, that's not a great strategy in Sil 1.3 either. Consider a Sil 1.3 fine 1d15 5.5 +0 Great Spear of Hador's House (12.5-1, crit on 11.5) vs a 2lb 1d8 shortsword (9-3, crit on 6), non-elf:
If 0-4, 1d19 vs 1d10. If 5-10, 1d19 vs 2d10, if 11-16, 2d19 vs 3d10, if 17-19, 2d19 vs 4d10.
The spear is better by more than in Sil-Q, while still being broadly terrible compared to good two-handed weapons, longsword plus shield, etc. The +2 on the shortsword does make a difference, I'll grant, but the ranges with 1d19 vs 1d10 and 2d19 vs 3d10 still mean the spear is strongly favoured on damage when we're looking at rolls below 20.

Part of the problem here is that shortswords are built to excel in sneak attacks, where attacking a sleeping enemy at -5 with the benefit of Assassination and potentially Focused Attack can see you hitting at +40 or +50. Here, Dagmor comfortably outperforms the spear, particularly with the improved average damage from more dice. A 1lb 1d8 shortsword would be better still.

Subtlety was good in Sil 1.3 with ridiculous bonuses from Song of Slaying. It was not previously competitive on damage on +1-20 rolls with even great spears (which were bad) unless you had e.g. a deathblade, and it is not particularly competitive now unless you're sneak attacking.

The other advantage of more criticals is better Cruel Blow, which substantially improves your odds by stopping your opponents hitting you back.

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Originally Posted by Freeya View Post
If I switch to my longsword (2d8 with str), crit on +6 with subtlety. So 1-5, 2d8 vs 1d19. 6-9, 3d8 vs 1d19. 10-11, 3d8 vs 2d19. 12-17, 4d8 vs 2d19. 18-19, 5d8 vs 2d19. Longsword gets crushed (not to mention it loses 2 melee). A 2d6 2lb longsword (I don't have one), would be 1-4, 2d8 vs 1d19, 5-9, 3d8 vs 1d19, 10-14, 4d8 vs 2d19, 15-19, 5d8 vs 2d19. Better, but I'd still take the spear easily.
I note on the numbers you give the 2d6 longsword is better: 3d8 vs 1d19 is a bigger average damage gain than 2d8 vs 1d19 is a loss, and 5d8 vs 2d19 is a bigger average damage gain than 4d8 vs 2d19 is a loss.

2d6 longsword is however worse I think once polearm mastery is included, though we should note the polearm is a +damage ego with double fine quality so the corresponding longsword that should really be compared is 2d7 e.g. a Longsword of Hador's House +damage +to-hit.

Generally though wielding a longsword one-handed with Subtlety is not playing to its core strength - the longsword helps by letting you carry a shield that greatly improves your survivability at the cost of lowering your damage.

It's tempting to calculate e.g. 1d21 vs 5d4 as favouring the former because the best possible roll is higher, but the latter is squarely ahead on average.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeya View Post
If I use my great sword 3d6, I lose 4 melee, same weight. So becomes 3d10. Realistically, it'd be -3 to 0, 0 vs 1d19, 1 -6, 3d10 vs 1d19, 7-9, 3d10 vs 2d19, 10-16, 4d10 vs 2d19. This is probably a toss up, although with a high enough melee bonus the spear will pull ahead. Again not including Polearm mastery, which gives the advantage to the spear.
Greatswords tend to benefit strongly from Power instead of Finesse, and also stand to benefit more from Herbs of Rage and Strength potions. Even with the 5.5 lb Greatsword, if you're using it with 5 strength and Power you're crushing the spear.

A 7 lb vanilla 3d5 greatsword with Power and a Strength potion taking your Strength to 7 obliterates the spear in that first +20 portion with 3d13 delivering far better than 1d19 and comfortably over 2d19. An actually good heavy greatsword will fare far better - we are comparing here to a double-fine ego spear with boosted damage sides (the counterpart of a base (-1, 3d7) longsword, which will be comfortably better than the spear with 4 strength if you take Power over Finesse).

Quote:
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I might consider changing subtlety to 3 points, and improving 2 handed fighting in some way as well (parry count for off hand too? Even though it's unrealistic).
Haha no Subtlety with a 1 lb 1d8 shortsword and a proper Assassination backstab is already absurd. Nivim killed Morgoth in 7 hits - with Dagmor! - and uber Song of Lorien (he has been patched to be a little more Lorien resistant since). Two handed fighting is meant to be not so mainstream, but the +evasion of a defender weapon or Galadriel or something adding resists is its main plus, it's not primarily about gaining damage.

Last edited by Quirk; August 24, 2018 at 02:20.
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