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Old August 21, 2018, 02:51   #1
Freeya
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Sil Q

Rather than clog up the official thread, I'll make a new one with my thoughts.

Initial impression. Enemies on depth 50 hit VERY hard. If I didn't have a high con race I'd have died to the first enemy I encountered despite 11 melee 8 evasion (a plant). The spider poisoned me for 8 twice, that's a lot at depth 50 (although it's normal depth is 150, 2d6 is still a lot for that depth). Also despite my 8 evasion, and their very low melee, they rarely miss, while I miss more often than I would in Sil vs a similar enemy. So far I'm finding this significantly more difficult, which the manual said the high depths were meant to be easier.

Last edited by Freeya; August 21, 2018 at 02:56.
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Old August 21, 2018, 04:32   #2
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At 250 feet. Seems like I was unlucky at 50, had little trouble till 250. Was chased up stairs by red serpent (which I hit like 8x no damage with 2d7 and 1d5), and 6 orc archers. Orc archers even more annoying than Sil, but they seem to do less damage.

I like the breeding spiders, nice addition. Had 3 specials on floor at 50 feet, this intentional?
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Old August 21, 2018, 04:41   #3
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Channeling and alchemy both identify staves and horns?
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Old August 21, 2018, 08:44   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeya View Post
Rather than clog up the official thread, I'll make a new one with my thoughts.

Initial impression. Enemies on depth 50 hit VERY hard. If I didn't have a high con race I'd have died to the first enemy I encountered despite 11 melee 8 evasion (a plant). The spider poisoned me for 8 twice, that's a lot at depth 50 (although it's normal depth is 150, 2d6 is still a lot for that depth). Also despite my 8 evasion, and their very low melee, they rarely miss, while I miss more often than I would in Sil vs a similar enemy. So far I'm finding this significantly more difficult, which the manual said the high depths were meant to be easier.
Hrm. I have some bad news - none of this has changed from Sil 1.3 except the breeding spider. The breeding spider is slow, also, so if it's hitting you at all, it's every other turn. My additions are giving you a little extra stealth in the early levels and the skeletons, searchable with the comma key, which provide a little additional low quality protection. Orc archers are also the same. Three specials at 50' is very lucky but sometimes happens; I also haven't improved drop quality. Everything you have experienced you would experience in 1.3 if you played enough of each.

(Edit: ah, while I haven't improved drop quality in general, I have made a few things - crowns, sceptres, and daggers - more likely to be special, on the basis that they are rarely very useful in their default incarnations, and daggers and sceptres tend to be early drops.)

You are however right on a more fundamental level: the Sil early game can be brutal until you are sufficiently well equipped.

Channeling and Alchemy do both identify staves and horns. I have considered removing it from the latter but I am erring on the side of making the ID game easier to bypass.

Last edited by Quirk; August 21, 2018 at 21:51.
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Old August 21, 2018, 22:26   #5
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I've never had such a hard time on 50 so I probably was just unlucky. I didn't find any skeletons as of yet. All 3 specials were daggers, come to think of it.

I'm doing much better now (depth 350) I think one thing which didn't help was I had no armor at all until 100.

I did notice some enemies like the spider were slow.


I've never actually played Sil 1.3, only 1.1 and 1.2. When i got my tablet I went straight to Sil q. So that could be part of it.

Anyway I think the only thing I dislike so far really is the tons of skills needed to Id everything, yet 2 of them identify staves and 3 of them horns. It's hard to keep track of what identifies what, and I still don't know what will identify an artifact (enchantment?). I'm unsure which ones I'll get besides alchemy (if any). I'd consider putting lore master back in with a higher cost and 2-3 prerequisites. It was too cheap before.

The increased special on daggers is a really nice addition, I used the two handed one for awhile (I had no shields and used till I got subtlety). I don't know if you or 1.3 added the various extra monsters but I like the variety. The xp for fleeing on stairs is a nice addition.

I haven't acquired the first archery skill yet (the 3 extra Dex for fleeing) but it's on my list, and I'm sure it'll be a good one. I definitely have to think more about what skills to get besides my usual staples (finesse, zone of control, flanking, follow through, opportunist, assassination, rapid attack, whirlwind attack, either two handed or subtlety). Dodging was a staple but it's not a prerequisite, so I'm undecided but probably will pick it up. Other than those, your version definitely offers many more potential ways to go.

Are battle axes and great swords lower depths? I've had none so far. Might be a 1.3 change, too.
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Old August 21, 2018, 23:06   #6
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And down she goes from my not knowing antidote was a full poison cure, and my own stupidity on 400.

Time to try again.
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Old August 22, 2018, 01:00   #7
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I'm doing much better now (depth 350) I think one thing which didn't help was I had no armor at all until 100.
Armour makes a huge difference in the early game. Unfortunately this does involve some amount of luck, though you can always forge a set at 100'. Since Artistry has gone and you can produce fine armour with the base skill, it's usually a much better set than you're likely to have picked up by then naturally.

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Anyway I think the only thing I dislike so far really is the tons of skills needed to Id everything, yet 2 of them identify staves and 3 of them horns.
Alchemy and Enchantment should ID everything between them; two skills, as in 1.3, though if you have both you'll also be able to craft enchanted items with any smithing skill. Buying Enchantment on its own requires investing to 5 points of Smithing and 500 XP, and this costs 2000 XP.

In Sil 1.3, buying Lore-Keeper and Lore-Master plus two other Perception skills would have been 500 + 1000 + 1500 + 2000; in Sil-Q, paying for two Perception skills, Alchemy and Enchantment is the same cost. More than two skills beside Alchemy and you're better off, less than two and you're paying more.

IDing items is generally less finicky than herbs and potions though and staves of Self-Knowledge and Understanding do quite a bit to help so generally I don't take Enchantment and I think most people find it skippable.

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The increased special on daggers is a really nice addition, I used the two handed one for awhile (I had no shields and used till I got subtlety). I don't know if you or 1.3 added the various extra monsters but I like the variety. The xp for fleeing on stairs is a nice addition.

I haven't acquired the first archery skill yet (the 3 extra Dex for fleeing) but it's on my list, and I'm sure it'll be a good one. I definitely have to think more about what skills to get besides my usual staples (finesse, zone of control, flanking, follow through, opportunist, assassination, rapid attack, whirlwind attack, either two handed or subtlety). Dodging was a staple but it's not a prerequisite, so I'm undecided but probably will pick it up. Other than those, your version definitely offers many more potential ways to go.
Glad you've been enjoying the changes! You should find that the usual longsword/bastard sword choices remain effective, if slightly weaker without Momentum, but other weapons have had some boosts as well. Polearms have both had their base stats boosted and Polearm Mastery strengthened, axes benefit strongly from Anticipate and blunt weapons will now do a portion of their damage through armour.

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Are battle axes and great swords lower depths? I've had none so far. Might be a 1.3 change, too.
Sil 1.3 has battleaxes marked to normally drop from 150' onwards and greatswords from 250'. Sil-Q adjusts both to normally drop from 200' on.

Longswords and bastard swords have been adjusted a little deeper - longswords dropped in 1.3 from 150' and bastard swords from 200' on, now longswords drop from 200' and bastard swords from 300'. The reasoning behind this was that longswords remain some of the most efficient weapons in the game (and more or less obsolete curved swords when they appear) and bastard swords act like more flexible greatswords (with a couple of exceptions around high strength characters and Impale).
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Old August 22, 2018, 21:13   #8
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I didn't realize the 2 combined identified everything. I haven't found any understanding staves on any run yet (I've died several more times at shallower depth, definitely harder than 1.1.1 which I had been playing on my phone).

I'm used to doing finesse, zoc, flanking (dodging), then the Id skill(s), but I'm thinking I may change that to finesse, zoc, assassination, opportunist, alchemy. Issue there is then my evasion will be terrible. Perception I usually pick up keen senses (since this plus the will skill plus a lot of light is needed for enemies walking around with darkness), bane. In this version I'll add the 1/3 evasion one as the bonus outweighs extra points in evasion. Which means concentration too most likely.

One problem is anything with 2d4 (or better) protection is really difficult to kill until a longsword or 3dx weapon is found, especially the crit immune plants. I find myself generally avoiding them now, or equipping the curved sword.

Polearms are still 1d9 and 1d13 for spears/great spears.
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Old August 23, 2018, 08:46   #9
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One problem is anything with 2d4 (or better) protection is really difficult to kill until a longsword or 3dx weapon is found, especially the crit immune plants. I find myself generally avoiding them now, or equipping the curved sword.

Polearms are still 1d9 and 1d13 for spears/great spears.
Blunt weapons going through armour can help a lot with serpents; switching to a quarterstaff or sceptre brings them down quite fast. Curved sword also works. If you sneak up on e.g. a brood spider and catch it sleeping the criticals from a finesse spear can murder it fast (though rolling 5 or 6 on 4d11 is miserable).

Polearm boost was to the to hit. Spears are now up to 0, great spears +1, glaives - 1.
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Old August 23, 2018, 20:27   #10
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I've seen 1 quarterstaff and 0 sceptres so far in all my attempts. The quarterstaff I actually did equip when I had found it.

I was more referring to the plants which can't be criticaled. Serpents actually have low evade so they can be killed easily.
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