Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 9, 2012, 17:12   #11
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,024
Derakon is on a distinguished road
There's an incredibly easy solution to this problem, which I'll advocate one more time and then shut up about: turn off level feelings or make them combined object/monster feelings again. The split into separate level feelings hasn't reduced complaints about inaccurate feelings in the slightest -- they've just gone from "I got a superb level feeling so why didn't I find anything while fleeing from Ancalagon" to "I got a [bad|good] object feeling so why [was there an awesome item|didn't I find anything awesome]".

Object level feelings really don't add anything to the game. They're just a minor amount of flavor and a grossly oversimplified "should I explore this level?" indicator. The answer to that question should always be "yes" -- otherwise, something is broken in the dungeon generator.

Now, personally I just turned level feelings off and never looked back or worried that I wasn't going to find anything on a given level -- and my experience has been that levels are generally worth exploring, so I've done fine. My issue with the larger community is that it feels like we're wasting the devs' time having them come up with accurate valuations (and arguments for why those valuations are accurate) that are only relevant for these level feelings and don't pay off in any other part of the game.

So just turn the feelings off for everyone. Or at least combine them with the monster feeling again so they're impossible to interpret accurately.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 18:06   #12
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,060
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
There's an incredibly easy solution to this problem, which I'll advocate one more time and then shut up about: turn off level feelings or make them combined object/monster feelings again. The split into separate level feelings hasn't reduced complaints about inaccurate feelings in the slightest -- they've just gone from "I got a superb level feeling so why didn't I find anything while fleeing from Ancalagon" to "I got a [bad|good] object feeling so why [was there an awesome item|didn't I find anything awesome]".

Object level feelings really don't add anything to the game. They're just a minor amount of flavor and a grossly oversimplified "should I explore this level?" indicator. The answer to that question should always be "yes" -- otherwise, something is broken in the dungeon generator.

Now, personally I just turned level feelings off and never looked back or worried that I wasn't going to find anything on a given level -- and my experience has been that levels are generally worth exploring, so I've done fine. My issue with the larger community is that it feels like we're wasting the devs' time having them come up with accurate valuations (and arguments for why those valuations are accurate) that are only relevant for these level feelings and don't pay off in any other part of the game.

So just turn the feelings off for everyone. Or at least combine them with the monster feeling again so they're impossible to interpret accurately.
I love the irony in that last sentence. If level feelings are designed to be impossible to interpret accurately then they may as well be either random or absent. Given that we now have no selling, a combination of no feelings and no selling pretty much removes the power/pricing debate altogether. Obviously this isn't concluded until we remove the BM and stock only +0,+0 stuff in the other shops.

It would be reasonably simple to provide random level feelings for flavour alone, and not pretend that they were conveying any info. I suspect we'd still get complaints though.

Derakon is, as usual, right - splitting the level feelings hasn't stopped the complaints at all. I'd be completely happy with removing them, if my fellow devs wanted to.
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 19:27   #13
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,822
Estie is on a distinguished road
Splitting level feelings might or might not stop complaints, but its untested because it hasnt been done; instead there was a combination of splitting and re-evaluating and the complaints were about the latter part.

That is not to say that I am supporting level feelings in any way; I find them rather useless and agree with Derakon that removal would be a good idea.
However, I do not agree that looking for a way to evaluate items is a waste of time. To the contrary, if that were done, it would further the development of angband in a big way, wether it be done for level feelings or for some other reason - think of the randart code.
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 20:01   #14
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,024
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
I love the irony in that last sentence. If level feelings are designed to be impossible to interpret accurately then they may as well be either random or absent.
To be fair, the old "superb" level feeling generally told you that there was something significant on the level. Whether that was Feanor or Ancalagon, you didn't know. Thus why I don't have a beef with the old system -- it helped lure people to explore dangerous levels in the hope that the level feeling meant there was loot to be had. Of course you get the same result with no level feelings at all.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9, 2012, 20:05   #15
LostTemplar
Knight
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 670
LostTemplar is on a distinguished road
How about level feelings, completely independent of monsters and objects. Just room values e.g. greater vault gives superb, normal vault or pit lucky, something like this.
LostTemplar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2012, 02:36   #16
Jungle_Boy
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 434
Jungle_Boy is on a distinguished road
Just my 2 cents but I like the split in level feelings and I don't particularly care if they are perfectly accurate. In my opinion they should not be perfectly accurate, they are meant to be a more general sense of the level not a 'shop here' sign.
__________________
My first winner: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10138
Jungle_Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2012, 04:32   #17
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,024
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
Just my 2 cents but I like the split in level feelings and I don't particularly care if they are perfectly accurate. In my opinion they should not be perfectly accurate, they are meant to be a more general sense of the level not a 'shop here' sign.
Do you have any ideas on how we could possibly maintain split level feelings without them being "shop here" signs and without having players complain about them being inaccurate?
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2012, 05:12   #18
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,822
Estie is on a distinguished road
For me the whole level feeling thing always has had a bad taste of "dm vs player" game about it. I would say keep the monster part of the split and dump the treasure part, but isnt the problem non-preserve mode where a feeling is kindof essential ? Not that I know of many who play with that option turned on.
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2012, 07:34   #19
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,024
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
For me the whole level feeling thing always has had a bad taste of "dm vs player" game about it. I would say keep the monster part of the split and dump the treasure part, but isnt the problem non-preserve mode where a feeling is kindof essential ? Not that I know of many who play with that option turned on.
It should be straightforward to keep the special level feeling while ditching all the others. It's special, after all.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10, 2012, 08:27   #20
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,822
Estie is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
It should be straightforward to keep the special level feeling while ditching all the others. It's special, after all.
Yesyes....but at least it was camouflaged among other more or less meaningfull messages about treasure. If somebody is worried about a "shop here" message, how can he possibly bear the naked "artifact here !" ? But you only get the message when the artifact would be lost forever! Oh the punishment!

Dungeon master versus player.
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[3.3.0] Delayed level feeling lost after save/load Bee Vortex Vanilla 6 August 12, 2011 10:20
RNG feeling sorry? Timo Pietilš AAR 4 January 29, 2011 00:22
You have a good feeling... Maupin Vanilla 9 August 22, 2009 11:35
Music:One MIDI file for every level feeling - can it be done?? Nemesis Development 6 July 26, 2009 17:09
messages with feeling Faust Vanilla 5 April 30, 2007 04:00


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.