Level feeling with 3.3.1?

[Derakon]

There's an incredibly easy solution to this problem, which I'll advocate one more time and then shut up about: turn off level feelings or make them combined object/monster feelings again. The split into separate level feelings hasn't reduced complaints about inaccurate feelings in the slightest -- they've just gone from "I got a superb level feeling so why didn't I find anything while fleeing from Ancalagon" to "I got a [bad|good] object feeling so why [was there an awesome item|didn't I find anything awesome]".

Object level feelings really don't add anything to the game. They're just a minor amount of flavor and a grossly oversimplified "should I explore this level?" indicator. The answer to that question should always be "yes" -- otherwise, something is broken in the dungeon generator.

Now, personally I just turned level feelings off and never looked back or worried that I wasn't going to find anything on a given level -- and my experience has been that levels are generally worth exploring, so I've done fine. My issue with the larger community is that it feels like we're wasting the devs' time having them come up with accurate valuations (and arguments for why those valuations are accurate) that are only relevant for these level feelings and don't pay off in any other part of the game.

So just turn the feelings off for everyone. Or at least combine them with the monster feeling again so they're impossible to interpret accurately.

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by Derakon

There's an incredibly easy solution to this problem, which I'll advocate one more time and then shut up about: turn off level feelings or make them combined object/monster feelings again. The split into separate level feelings hasn't reduced complaints about inaccurate feelings in the slightest -- they've just gone from "I got a superb level feeling so why didn't I find anything while fleeing from Ancalagon" to "I got a [bad|good] object feeling so why [was there an awesome item|didn't I find anything awesome]".

Object level feelings really don't add anything to the game. They're just a minor amount of flavor and a grossly oversimplified "should I explore this level?" indicator. The answer to that question should always be "yes" -- otherwise, something is broken in the dungeon generator.

Now, personally I just turned level feelings off and never looked back or worried that I wasn't going to find anything on a given level -- and my experience has been that levels are generally worth exploring, so I've done fine. My issue with the larger community is that it feels like we're wasting the devs' time having them come up with accurate valuations (and arguments for why those valuations are accurate) that are only relevant for these level feelings and don't pay off in any other part of the game.

So just turn the feelings off for everyone. Or at least combine them with the monster feeling again so they're impossible to interpret accurately.

I love the irony in that last sentence. If level feelings are designed to be impossible to interpret accurately then they may as well be either random or absent. Given that we now have no selling, a combination of no feelings and no selling pretty much removes the power/pricing debate altogether. Obviously this isn't concluded until we remove the BM and stock only +0,+0 stuff in the other shops.

It would be reasonably simple to provide random level feelings for flavour alone, and not pretend that they were conveying any info. I suspect we'd still get complaints though.

Derakon is, as usual, right - splitting the level feelings hasn't stopped the complaints at all. I'd be completely happy with removing them, if my fellow devs wanted to.

[Estie]

Splitting level feelings might or might not stop complaints, but its untested because it hasnt been done; instead there was a combination of splitting and re-evaluating and the complaints were about the latter part.

That is not to say that I am supporting level feelings in any way; I find them rather useless and agree with Derakon that removal would be a good idea.
However, I do not agree that looking for a way to evaluate items is a waste of time. To the contrary, if that were done, it would further the development of angband in a big way, wether it be done for level feelings or for some other reason - think of the randart code.

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by Magnate

I love the irony in that last sentence. If level feelings are designed to be impossible to interpret accurately then they may as well be either random or absent.

To be fair, the old "superb" level feeling generally told you that there was something significant on the level. Whether that was Feanor or Ancalagon, you didn't know. Thus why I don't have a beef with the old system -- it helped lure people to explore dangerous levels in the hope that the level feeling meant there was loot to be had. Of course you get the same result with no level feelings at all.

[LostTemplar]

How about level feelings, completely independent of monsters and objects. Just room values e.g. greater vault gives superb, normal vault or pit lucky, something like this.

[Jungle_Boy]

Just my 2 cents but I like the split in level feelings and I don't particularly care if they are perfectly accurate. In my opinion they should not be perfectly accurate, they are meant to be a more general sense of the level not a 'shop here' sign.

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy

Just my 2 cents but I like the split in level feelings and I don't particularly care if they are perfectly accurate. In my opinion they should not be perfectly accurate, they are meant to be a more general sense of the level not a 'shop here' sign.

Do you have any ideas on how we could possibly maintain split level feelings without them being "shop here" signs and without having players complain about them being inaccurate?

[Estie]

For me the whole level feeling thing always has had a bad taste of "dm vs player" game about it. I would say keep the monster part of the split and dump the treasure part, but isnt the problem non-preserve mode where a feeling is kindof essential ? Not that I know of many who play with that option turned on.

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by Estie

For me the whole level feeling thing always has had a bad taste of "dm vs player" game about it. I would say keep the monster part of the split and dump the treasure part, but isnt the problem non-preserve mode where a feeling is kindof essential ? Not that I know of many who play with that option turned on.

It should be straightforward to keep the special level feeling while ditching all the others. It's special, after all.

[Estie]

Originally Posted by Derakon

It should be straightforward to keep the special level feeling while ditching all the others. It's special, after all.

Yesyes....but at least it was camouflaged among other more or less meaningfull messages about treasure. If somebody is worried about a "shop here" message, how can he possibly bear the naked "artifact here !" ? But you only get the message when the artifact would be lost forever! Oh the punishment!

Dungeon master versus player.