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Old January 12, 2012, 05:16   #31
Jungle_Boy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Do you have any ideas on how we could possibly maintain split level feelings without them being "shop here" signs and without having players complain about them being inaccurate?
From the complaints I don't think there is a problem with the danger feelings. In role play this could be construed as skulls on the wall or @-shaped scorch marks where a previous adventurer met his doom.

The problem seems to be in the level rating for items. For one I think it should take slightly longer to generate this feeling, not much, but more than one room which it is sometimes currently. I think perhaps artifacts should have a minimum level feeling of 'something worthwhile' that would probably be the only other change I'd make.
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Old January 12, 2012, 05:39   #32
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I pretty much ignore the treasure portion of the feelings, unless I am 40-50% cleared and trying to decide between clearing more or moving on.

The danger portion, on the other hand, I find quite valuable.
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Old January 12, 2012, 15:29   #33
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Originally Posted by sethos View Post
I'm pretty sure that using Clvl or the characters abilities as a base for price is a bit skewed - even if it would work.
I just find the idea of shopkeepers charging YOU more because YOU would like that item better than uncle bob over there... a bit unsavory. It makes me feel like my high level warrior should be able to send in the town idiot with some cash, so he can buy that nice MOD for me at a discount.

of course, as you're the only adventurer really wandering around, shopkeepers raising their prices as you accumulate more wealth and buy more things doesn't sound all that unreasonable. them shopkeepers SHOULD see dollar signs when you walk in with 2.5 million gold - it's not like you can hide it in your back pocket. (even though it doesn't weigh anything or take up any inventory space... harrumph.)
You're right that any character attributes (stats, clev, class, whatever) have been prevented from affecting object power for precisely the reasons in your first paragraph. You're also right that in a single-player game there's no real need for this - we could, if we wanted, use a pricing system that charged you an amount which depended on something's utility to you at that particular moment, i.e. depending on how many blows you got with a weapon, how much +speed you already had, etc.

The problem with the latter approach is abuse. If you see a fabulous heavy weapon in the BM (Mace of Disruption, say), you just drop all your +STR and +DEX gear until you can only get one blow with it, which will make it cheaper. Then you buy it, pick up all your +stat gear so you can get 5 blows with it, and re-sell it at a massive profit.

A contrived example, but you see what I mean. If we used clev instead of stats, I can see potions of lose memories suddenly occupying a slot in the home alongside those of restore xp.

That said, if anyone wants to code up a rating algorithm that uses stats or clev, and has mechanisms for avoiding abuse, I'll be happy to test it. There are enough drawbacks with the current algorithm that I'd have no hesitation in replacing it with something better.
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Old January 12, 2012, 18:51   #34
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If we used clev instead of stats, I can see potions of lose memories suddenly occupying a slot in the home alongside those of restore xp.
Just use the "max clev ever achieved" instead of clev.
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Old January 12, 2012, 19:02   #35
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Yup - use the characters undrained stats and level maximums, and disregard current equipment, to price items.

This would mean that an item can be a "good deal" if your gear is where most of your boosts are - since gear mods would be ignored - it should also make weapons more expensive for warriors and less so for mages, but I think that's altogether reasonable.

I think that would close any loopholes, unless you can think of others?
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Old January 12, 2012, 19:16   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethos View Post
Yup - use the characters undrained stats and level maximums, and disregard current equipment, to price items.

This would mean that an item can be a "good deal" if your gear is where most of your boosts are - since gear mods would be ignored - it should also make weapons more expensive for warriors and less so for mages, but I think that's altogether reasonable.

I think that would close any loopholes, unless you can think of others?
If we assume for a moment that this would work for weapons (and I'm not sure that we'd get sensible prices if we ignored gear mods to stats), how would it work for armour? If you ignore gear, you ignore the weight of what's being worn, which is a huge factor in determining the utility of a piece of armour at any particular point (for non-warriors at least). Or are we saying that only weapon pricing is broken at the moment, and we can leave armour and jewelry as-is?

I think if we were serious about moving to current-utility pricing, we ought to have a kit optimiser to work it out. Since lots of people would like a built-in kit optimiser, this might not be a bad thing! (Someone has already written one, so it's not like anyone has to start from scratch.)
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Old January 12, 2012, 19:33   #37
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I still think the amount of value we'd get out of this can't come close to matching the amount of effort required to implement it. And I really don't think it makes good gameplay sense for the shopkeepers to change how much they charge for an item based on how useful it is to you.
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Old January 12, 2012, 20:11   #38
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Derakon, I'm beginning to see us this way

Me<---------------------->You

I'd make the line longer, but I think the point is made - we are on opposite sides on just about every discussion.

That being said - I've seen you to have very good points and be very persuasive, and I'm glad that I don't see flames and indignant remarks flying as I have seen in so many other places.

In short, I've a healthy dose of respect for you, though I'll probably continue to disagree with most of what you say.
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Old January 12, 2012, 20:18   #39
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And I really don't think it makes good gameplay sense for the shopkeepers to change how much they charge for an item based on how useful it is to you.
What he said. (OTOH, if it's good enough for wearables, why not consumables. What would you pay for a WoR to DL87? 1/2 your of your 1,743,237 GP? probably).
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Old January 12, 2012, 20:29   #40
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Sethos: hey, disagreement is good! Helps us to better justify our positions...or if they aren't justifiable, to make us realize we should abandon them. The trick is keeping things civil.

To explicate on my stance, then, in my opinion the player is not the only adventurer here; he's just the only visible adventurer. Way back in the day you used to be able to get player "ghosts" that were still alive, and showed up in town. These went away when ghosts were removed, and probably wouldn't come back because the town's supposed to be safe (so having a high-level ranger slinging spells and arrows at your poor level-13 rear isn't so great), but in my own personal envisioning of the "real" Angband universe, they're still around.

As soon as you introduce more than one buyer into the economy, you greatly change the dynamics. Shopkeepers who change their prices based on who they're selling to tend to be unpopular. Hell, people are trying it now, in the real world, and buyers generally get annoyed if they know they're not getting as good a deal as they could be. When your buyers are heavily armed and spattered with the blood of ancient dragons, you probably don't want to piss them off...

So basically, I see good socially-motivated reasons for the shopkeepers to want to gouge everyone equally.

As for whether or not someone wants to implement it, hell, that's their business. I just wouldn't want to play that way, and these days Vanilla frowns on options, so I'm not clear on how such an effort could integrate into the main development effort.
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