Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 19, 2015, 18:22   #31
Nomad
Knight
 
Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 958
Nomad is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron View Post
How do you use level feelings, for those of you that do keep them on?
For me, level feelings:

1. Encourage me to stay on levels until the treasure feeling kicks in, instead of always taking the first down staircase that I come to. So they create an effective sort of 'exploration timer' that creates a balance between diving too fast and fully clearing levels.

2. Encourage me to stay on levels that initially look boring or too scary, because there's a promise of a reward for level-clearing. (In the early game I'll stick around clear any level that promises "something worthwhile", but as I go deeper the threshold for what I consider worth clearing increases.)

So I'd be up for any sort of more thematic replacement that encourages similar behaviour. (Although perhaps the ultimate ideal solution is "stop any levels being boring to clear", but then you edge your way into the "when everything is equally exciting, nothing is" problem.)
Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 18:45   #32
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,828
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
For me, level feelings:

1. Encourage me to stay on levels until the treasure feeling kicks in, instead of always taking the first down staircase that I come to. So they create an effective sort of 'exploration timer' that creates a balance between diving too fast and fully clearing levels.

2. Encourage me to stay on levels that initially look boring or too scary, because there's a promise of a reward for level-clearing. (In the early game I'll stick around clear any level that promises "something worthwhile", but as I go deeper the threshold for what I consider worth clearing increases.)

So I'd be up for any sort of more thematic replacement that encourages similar behaviour. (Although perhaps the ultimate ideal solution is "stop any levels being boring to clear", but then you edge your way into the "when everything is equally exciting, nothing is" problem.)
Why do you consider the behaviors that level feelings encourage to be worthwhile behaviors? Is there something wrong with taking the first down staircase you see?
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 18:55   #33
Ingwe Ingweron
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 1,791
Ingwe Ingweron is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Why do you consider the behaviors that level feelings encourage to be worthwhile behaviors? Is there something wrong with taking the first down staircase you see?
There is if, say in the early levels, I come across a down staircase but also get a level feeling of 6 or above. I wouldn't want to pass up grabbing a 'Thanc dagger, the Phial, or any number of pretty-good items that would help in my dive to stat gain depth. Sure, sometimes it turns out to be something worthless to me, like an out-of-depth magic book when I'm playing a warrior, but the odds are it will be something worth the effort to check it out. Also, extra caution when the monster feeling is jacked up is not a bad thing.
Ingwe Ingweron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 19:08   #34
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,828
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron View Post
There is if, say in the early levels, I come across a down staircase but also get a level feeling of 6 or above. I wouldn't want to pass up grabbing a 'Thanc dagger, the Phial, or any number of pretty-good items that would help in my dive to stat gain depth. Sure, sometimes it turns out to be something worthless to me, like an out-of-depth magic book when I'm playing a warrior, but the odds are it will be something worth the effort to check it out. Also, extra caution when the monster feeling is jacked up is not a bad thing.
No, my point is that if level feelings encourage sticking around on levels, is sticking around on levels actually desirable independent of the level feelings? Because otherwise the level feelings aren't actually "accomplishing anything" in terms of encouraging desirable behaviors.

I get that functionally the level feelings are "hints" and that some players like being given hints (no matter how useless/subject to confirmation bias those hints are). That's not what I'm asking.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 19:10   #35
Nomad
Knight
 
Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 958
Nomad is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Why do you consider the behaviors that level feelings encourage to be worthwhile behaviors? Is there something wrong with taking the first down staircase you see?
Well, I die less, for a start.

But I suppose it is to an extent my personal feeling that the 'ideal' gameplay balance should be aiming for somewhere in the middle between "always dive" and "always completely clear levels", so that players who tend towards both ends of the spectrum are served. Gameplay should encourage exploring enough to find interesting things rather than whizzing past without seeing them, but not enforce painstaking thoroughness as the only optimum way to play.

So I feel like the function level feelings are currently serving - inelegant kludge though they are - is helping players to notice interesting things on the level without having to explore every square to find them, but also without the interestingness being so immediately apparent that it's easy to scum for good levels and ignore the duds. They also go some way towards encouraging risk-taking, in the form of sticking around and facing challenging monsters in search of promised rewards rather than immediately fleeing at the first sight of anything remotely scary.

That said, I think your and fizzix's level design ideas are good suggestions for encouraging that sort of dive/exploration balance by other means - i.e. smaller and fewer levels make 'explore every square' play less dull and arduous, and more themed or structured level types help give the player an early indication of what kind of risk/reward balance is ahead so they can make informed decisions on how much time to spend looking around. (For instance, if all labyrinth levels had an X percent chance of containing a minivault 'treasure chamber', or monster town levels were known to be likely to contain stashes of scrolls or potions, then that would serve the same sort of "maybe I shouldn't run away just yet, there are good odds of finding something worthwhile here" function as level feelings in a far more organic way.)

Last edited by Nomad; May 19, 2015 at 19:37. Reason: I forgot how to grammar
Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 19:13   #36
maboleth
Rookie
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 21
maboleth is on a distinguished road
+1 for the level feelings to stay. As people here said it, I find the "feelings" helpful to stay and explore the level to the fullest. Also gives more interaction with the environment.
maboleth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 19:29   #37
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,828
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Thanks for the well-reasoned response, Nomad. That's a much more clearly-explained opinion than any of the others I've seen here (probably including my own!).
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 19:37   #38
bio_hazard
Knight
 
bio_hazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 614
bio_hazard is on a distinguished road
It's pretty much flavor for me. The sneaking to the next stairs gets a little old- so stopping to do a little more clearing is a break in routine. There's increased anticipation of possibly finding something interesting, and the delicious anguish when you are forced off a level by tough monsters when some unknown treasure lies unclaimed. Similarly, when an omens of death message comes up, I'll often at least see what it is, and if it is a vault, weigh my options for taking the risk to see what's there. The time interval between the message and uncovering the potential cause of the message is typically more enjoyable than a similar amount of time without messages, since the anticipation adds to the tension and rewards of discovery.

To put this in context- I'm not a very good player because I don't really have the time to sit down and focus, and only play very sporadically (although I've been playing for a long time, starting in the early/mid 90's). I know I'm likely to either do something stupid and careless, or more likely, get busy and stop a game mid-campaign. For me it's not about getting to DL99/DL100. Things that add uniqueness to the other 98 levels make the game more enjoyable for me.

I can understand why expert players ignore level feelings, but I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp why they add something to the game for some of us It seems like the argument that "One of the unique benefits of Angband is it is a game you can play at your own pace and in your own style" applies pretty directly here.
bio_hazard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 20:05   #39
Ingwe Ingweron
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 1,791
Ingwe Ingweron is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
No, my point is that if level feelings encourage sticking around on levels, is sticking around on levels actually desirable independent of the level feelings? Because otherwise the level feelings aren't actually "accomplishing anything" in terms of encouraging desirable behaviors.

I get that functionally the level feelings are "hints" and that some players like being given hints (no matter how useless/subject to confirmation bias those hints are). That's not what I'm asking.
I guess I don't understand what you're asking. It sounds to me a little like, "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play."
Ingwe Ingweron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 20:15   #40
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,828
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron View Post
I guess I don't understand what you're asking. It sounds to me a little like, "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play."
Nomad said (in his earlier post, not the most recent one) something along the lines of "I like level feelings because they encourage me to do X." And I wanted to know why "encourages you to do X" was a desirable trait to have. I mean, if level feelings encouraged you to take shots of Liquid Plumbr then they wouldn't be very desirable, now would they?
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Level feelings biini Vanilla 6 May 7, 2014 10:25
Level feelings jens Development 35 July 13, 2011 18:57
Level feelings not quite there Max Stats Vanilla 3 June 16, 2011 12:49
Level feelings again (to use at all?) Chud Vanilla 10 March 5, 2011 15:11
Level feelings curinor Variants 0 April 30, 2008 20:17


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.