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Old November 16, 2013, 17:14   #71
buzzkill
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10. Repeating levels gets you less monsters and gear every time.
Meh.
Meh, Meh !!!

Without persistent levels and/or a much tighter item generation allocation Angband will never be "balanced". Scumming is the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. The community doesn't even like discussing it lest the C-word be mentioned. Perhaps it shouldn't shouldn't be addressed in Traditional Angband. If that is the case, lets get it off the table so we can move on to other areas without worry of it.

Also let me throw out a request for a persistent level birth option, a no-brainer IMO.

Only Nick can start a thread with a list of ideas and then a week later trash those same ideas .
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Old November 16, 2013, 17:36   #72
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Fortunately I have been able to hack my savefile and disable that option so now I can sell items, like in any shop of the world.
I own and run a shop and I can assure you that we do not buy things off customers - WE sell sell stuff to THEM and THEY give US money!
Furthermore, when I go to the butcher's I don't open up the fridge beforehand and pick out a bottle of milk, a cod fillet and half a dozen carrots to swap for my steak.

(Btw, with no_sell you get three times as much money from drops/mining/lying around so you typically end up much richer with no_sell on.)
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Old November 16, 2013, 18:03   #73
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Maboleth's complaint is basically the same complaint that everyone else who doesn't like no-selling has: it's practically Standard Policy in RPGs for shops to be primarily a way for the player to get money by selling junk they don't need; breaking that behavior is therefore confusing and potentially offputting. People expect to be able to get something for that crappy Club of Slay Giant they got even though its practical value is near nil.

(And if you say "Well, then why don't we reduce its sale value?" then you run into the same problem only later, when people are trying to hock Daggers of Westernesse that would be very good if found prior to 2000'...)
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Old November 16, 2013, 21:03   #74
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I own and run a shop and I can assure you that we do not buy things off customers - WE sell sell stuff to THEM and THEY give US money!
Furthermore, when I go to the butcher's I don't open up the fridge beforehand and pick out a bottle of milk, a cod fillet and half a dozen carrots to swap for my steak.
Haha! That's correct!
However, you're still being able to "sell" the items to the merchants but for 0 gold, no matter how bad or good the item. Quite confusing.

I see Angband as a place in early medieval ages, so those "shops" are more like markets where trade is being done, where merchants will buy various stuff from the adventurers or exchange the items of the similar value.

This is especially true for the "black market" shop - the only way they get items is by a trade, so even though they always undervalue items that you're selling, there's absolutely no sense to get 0 gold there.
In Angband I like collecting relatively good items that I don't necessarily need and then selling them to the merchants. Like a supplier that provides them items from the deep. Adds variety to the game.

I got your point about the advantages, and even though it's not my style of playing, I find it rather confusing in its current form.

As a massive Elder Scrolls fan, towns and shops are essential for me, for crafting, buying, selling or just chilling out and home decorating. Town in Angband is pretty limited in various ways but with no_sell option, going back there is even more unnecessary and diminished.
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Old November 16, 2013, 22:26   #75
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Town in Angband is pretty limited in various ways but with no_sell option, going back there is even more unnecessary and diminished.
Which is exactly the point of no-selling: to keep the player in the dungeon as much as possible. But I understand that not everyone enjoys that style of play.
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Old November 16, 2013, 23:02   #76
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Without persistent levels and/or a much tighter item generation allocation Angband will never be "balanced". Scumming is the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. The community doesn't even like discussing it lest the C-word be mentioned. Perhaps it shouldn't shouldn't be addressed in Traditional Angband. If that is the case, lets get it off the table so we can move on to other areas without worry of it.
All right, I'm taking this head-on.

This is not a bug, it's a feature.

The fact that scumming is possible is what sets Angband apart. You get the chance to scum (grind, whatever) for stuff, and then to work out for yourself whether that was satisfying play or not. I mean, this is an open source game that is easily modified - you don't even need to be able to code, you can completely nerf the game from the edit files. So setting serious rules that anyone with half a brain can get around in the blink of an eye is a bit precious.

Also, it's a single player game, and you're really only competing against yourself. When there is competition against other players, it usually comes down to turncount, which is hurt not helped by scumming.

On the other hand, there are massive advantages to trusting players and treating them like adults. Being a maintainer doesn't make me better than anyone else - what right do I have to be imposing moral judgments on people for the way they play?

So understand - this is not for me a problem that is too hard to address. It is just not a problem.

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Also let me throw out a request for a persistent level birth option, a no-brainer IMO.
I'll put it on the list. I do think it would make an interesting mode of play - you only get 100 levels, but you get to do Nethack-style gear stashing. It isn't going to be high on the list, though.

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Only Nick can start a thread with a list of ideas and then a week later trash those same ideas .
I may be inconsistent, but I'm consistently inconsistent
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Old November 17, 2013, 11:00   #77
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This is not a bug, it's a feature.
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Old November 17, 2013, 20:50   #78
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Nick will be awesome Angband maintainer
Indeed.

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Which is exactly the point of no-selling: to keep the player in the dungeon as much as possible. But I understand that not everyone enjoys that style of play.
Of course.
But I'd rather see a bit more developed town, so you'd want to come to the surface more. Town hasn't been touched for ages...
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Old November 17, 2013, 21:20   #79
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Make a town as in Unangband. Add trees and moats.
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Old November 22, 2013, 08:21   #80
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But I'd rather see a bit more developed town, so you'd want to come to the surface more. Town hasn't been touched for ages...
Good idea.

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Make a town as in Unangband. Add trees and moats.
That's a good thought. In fact, town would be a really good place to add experimental new terrain if we were thinking of going in that direction.
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