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Old March 23, 2016, 20:35   #11
Nick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
The standard "optimal" way to play is to dive to 98-99 and scum those levels repeatedly killing easy to loot monsters and bailing immediately if approached by something unhandleable. It'll get you endgame gear, but damn is it boring.

How to improve the endgame experience without a forcing mechanism is difficult, and I don't have any really good ideas. Maybe it's just not worth worrying about?
My experience of Steamband was that it handled that problem by making the last few levels so horrendously dangerous that you were hurrying to the bosses to escape all the stuff firing rockets at you (side note - has debo played Steam?). Of course that may just have been me, but making the bottom half of the dungeon ramp up a bit more in difficulty seems worth considering.
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Old March 23, 2016, 21:10   #12
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This is correct. Once the steam drills start showing up in squads, along with Nazi tanks in echelon, it's time to GTFO and go kill the baddies. The final bosses don't have a lot of HP though, so you can knock them over pretty quick. I played one game where Ming never got off a real move (playing an automaton Hussar or something like that.)
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Old March 23, 2016, 21:46   #13
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I remember modding a version once where monsters had a minimum spawn depth too, but that didn't solve the problem really, it actually made things even more tedious somehow.

The problem with "ramp up in difficulty" is that we give the player so many easy ways to control the situation, with destruction, teleport level, teleport other that an endgame character can easily handle the worst situation the game throws at them.

So I guess that's the question. How do you make the last few floors difficult?
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Old March 23, 2016, 22:22   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I remember modding a version once where monsters had a minimum spawn depth too, but that didn't solve the problem really, it actually made things even more tedious somehow.

The problem with "ramp up in difficulty" is that we give the player so many easy ways to control the situation, with destruction, teleport level, teleport other that an endgame character can easily handle the worst situation the game throws at them.

So I guess that's the question. How do you make the last few floors difficult?
Start taking away walls, maybe? If the last 10 levels were guaranteed to generate an increasing percentage of the dungeon using the cavern generation algorithm, that'd mean you'd want to skip over them more quickly. Of course, the problem with the cavern generator is that it vastly increases the odds of entering a level in sight of a zephyr hound group, shimmering vortex, or other guaranteed-awake nasty monster...

But yeah, it's very hard to put pressure on the player in Vanilla because they can almost always just refuse to engage.
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Old March 23, 2016, 22:46   #15
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Make all floor tiles vault floors except for rooms full of druj.

The loot at DL89 is still pretty good, I think all this would do is relocate the scumming.

I did try playing steam for the rockets but it didn't go well, I don't remember why.
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Old March 24, 2016, 00:52   #16
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1. BR_SOUN wakes up nearby monsters.
2.

name:700:Crystal Hound
base:zephyr hound
color:o
info:135:20d100:100:0
power:95...
blow:BITE:HURT:10d10
blow:BITE:BLIND:10d10
blow:CLAW:HURT:10d20
blow:CLAW:HURT:10d20
flags:KILL_WALL |SHIMMER NO_CONF|NO_SLEEP|FORCE_SLEEP |INVIS|DROP_DIAMOND
spell-freq:3
spells:BR_SHARD |BR_LIGHT|BR_SOUN
friends:100:2d7:Same
desc: A crystaline canine shape with claws and teeth of diamond. You see it only as flashes of color, as light glints through it's gem-like body
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Old March 24, 2016, 01:05   #17
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Yes let's improve angband by adding more hounds, please!
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Old March 24, 2016, 01:24   #18
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People asked for a way to make scumming the last few levels painful. I figured there's nothing more painful than kill-wall hounds that wake up everything in the dungeon. And yeah, it is a huge advantage for mages with Banish.
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Old March 24, 2016, 09:27   #19
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Yes let's improve angband by adding more hounds, please!
What if they were rocket breathing hounds?
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Old March 24, 2016, 12:16   #20
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My experience of Steamband was that it handled that problem by making the last few levels so horrendously dangerous that you were hurrying to the bosses to escape all the stuff firing rockets at you (side note - has debo played Steam?). Of course that may just have been me, but making the bottom half of the dungeon ramp up a bit more in difficulty seems worth considering.
In my variant I've added Ancient Wyrms for the last 15 levels. The Great Wyrms are now a bit weaker, but summon dragons. The Ancient Wyrms are a lot tougher, and summon ancient dragons. Very nasty encounters if not prepared...
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