Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > AAR

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 24, 2016, 12:19   #21
PowerWyrm
Veteran
 
PowerWyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,784
PowerWyrm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by debo View Post
Yes let's improve angband by adding more hounds, please!
Cyberhound
spells:BR_DISINTEGRATION|BR_NUKE|BR_WASTE|ROCKET
__________________
PWMAngband variant maintainer - check http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9 to learn more about this new variant!
PowerWyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24, 2016, 12:20   #22
PowerWyrm
Veteran
 
PowerWyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,784
PowerWyrm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
People asked for a way to make scumming the last few levels painful. I figured there's nothing more painful than kill-wall hounds that wake up everything in the dungeon. And yeah, it is a huge advantage for mages with Banish.
ToME has unmakers...
__________________
PWMAngband variant maintainer - check http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9 to learn more about this new variant!
PowerWyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25, 2016, 01:24   #23
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 6,256
Donated: $60
Nick is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
So I guess that's the question. How do you make the last few floors difficult?
Here are a few thoughts. I don't think any one solves it completely, and some may not be sensible, but some of them might form part of a strategy:
  • Less items on the floor, more carried by monsters
  • More monsters and effects which destroy walls
  • Monsters can pick up anything, including artifacts
  • More monsters native to deep levels (is there a good reason why there are no non-uniques native to level 80 or below?)
  • Less weak monsters at deep levels
  • More sophisticated stealth, noise propagation and monster tracking
  • Endgame consumables appear in stacks
  • More smaller levels

All this is also in the context of planned changes to dungeon generation and terrain.
__________________
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
Nick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 25, 2016, 06:46   #24
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,817
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
I suspect making sound/shard breaths wake up monsters with a damage-dependent radius would be a big enough change for waking monsters.
And yeah, monsters that tunnel in packs is hugely dangerous. That's Why I recommended hounds with high HP.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25, 2016, 12:58   #25
debo
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,228
debo is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Here are a few thoughts. I don't think any one solves it completely, and some may not be sensible, but some of them might form part of a strategy:
  • Less items on the floor, more carried by monsters
  • More monsters and effects which destroy walls
  • Monsters can pick up anything, including artifacts
  • More monsters native to deep levels (is there a good reason why there are no non-uniques native to level 80 or below?)
  • Less weak monsters at deep levels
  • More sophisticated stealth, noise propagation and monster tracking
  • Endgame consumables appear in stacks
  • More smaller levels

All this is also in the context of planned changes to dungeon generation and terrain.
A lot of these are zangband ideas, aren't they? Some others to consider stealing might be giving some dangerous monsters follow-teleport and/or teleport resistance, although the latter may be too "weird" for vanilla.
__________________
Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'
debo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26, 2016, 01:31   #26
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 2,923
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
All this is also in the context of planned changes to dungeon generation and terrain.
I think we need to start here, because otherwise a lot of the changes are problematic. Here's a standard endgame strat for levels 95-99.

Scum up and down stairs, leave immediately if you don't get an omens of death message.

If you do get an omens of death, detect around for vaults.

If you find a vault, destruct around the level, but not the vault, then loot the vault, teleporting away dangerous monsters.

Repeat until you have good enough endgame gear.

This is probably close to optimal play for turncount and even player time. Vaults are just that good of a source of endgame gear. Yet, they're also exciting for players. How can we keep the vault excitement, but prevent this playstyle? Do we care? Should we just let the scummers scum and balance for everyone else (like, balance for forced descent players?)

Are we thinking about nerfs to destruction, teleport level, and teleport away?
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26, 2016, 02:14   #27
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 6,256
Donated: $60
Nick is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
How can we keep the vault excitement, but prevent this playstyle?
I think having monsters that pick up or crush gear, having them native to deep levels, and maybe tweaking the monster selection algorithm a bit will go a long way toward that.

I can certainly sympathise with why this led you to the forced descent idea - I guess allowing some degree of scumming is kind of inevitable if we want to retain the Angband "play at your own pace" ethos.
__________________
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
Nick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 26, 2016, 02:55   #28
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 2,923
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I think having monsters that pick up or crush gear, having them native to deep levels, and maybe tweaking the monster selection algorithm a bit will go a long way toward that.
Personally I think crushing gear is an awful mechanic. We have the technology to just put the gear in the monsters inventories now. Maybe we should just do that.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26, 2016, 04:36   #29
AnonymousHero
Veteran
 
AnonymousHero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,238
AnonymousHero is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I can certainly sympathise with why this led you to the forced descent idea - I guess allowing some degree of scumming is kind of inevitable if we want to retain the Angband "play at your own pace" ethos.
I must admit (and even though it really goes against the playstyle I've adopted) that some kind of clock may be necessary to be able to balance things. That could take the form of a literal clock (like in Sil), but it could also be made more subtle. Here are a few options off the top of my head:
  • Reduce experience per kill based on number of previous kills of a monster of a that kind.
  • Reducing drops (to near-zero, or at least arbitrarily close to zero) the further away (up) you are from your "ideal" level.
  • Reduce monster spawns the further away (up) you are from your "ideal" level.
(These could and probably should be mix-and-matched.) I think they could mostly be explained in-game as Morgoth focusing his attention on @. Why would he have huge hordes of monsters focus their attention on L5 when @ is at L75? (Of course this explanation depends on the premise that Morgoth has some sort of vague idea where @ is... but that can be hand-waved with Morgoth having spies all over the dungeon, I think.)

The idea here would be to not actively force players, but just to make it pointless to stick around too long.

The above options may be a little too subtle to really notice quickly enough without a few in-game hints, so they could lead to the forum getting 'spammed' with "why am I no longer finding any lootz!?!?", but I don't think adding hints would be too difficult. Even something as crude as an "enter-level" message depending on how close you are to "ideal" depth could work.
AnonymousHero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26, 2016, 04:46   #30
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,687
Derakon is on a distinguished road
It was suggested by somebody awhile back (might've been me, I forget) that you should get at most N vaults per game, or at most N "value" worth of vaults, or something along those lines. The idea being that you should see a few vaults in a game, but you wouldn't be able to scum for them because there'd only be so many. This lets them remain special without making them scummable.

Also, disable level feelings. Make players scum the hard way, by actually exploring a portion of the level and/or burn an Enlightenment potion. Seriously, guys, if you play without level feelings you'll realize you're really not missing anything important.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What else do I need before endgame? onemonkey AAR 6 June 19, 2015 23:24
1.2 endgame feedback debo Sil 24 January 9, 2014 14:13
Endgame Swede2378 Vanilla 7 June 17, 2010 08:13
potions at endgame shawnosullivan Vanilla 3 October 26, 2009 01:16
Endgame artifacts tummychow Vanilla 9 October 1, 2009 21:55


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.