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Old March 26, 2016, 18:05   #41
Estie
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No selling is an option, and while the majority of players seems to be using it, the old way of play is still available. Forced descent is also an option, but it seems to be rarely used compared to the default. As long as whatever major change for the endgame is implemented is made optional, there cant be any reasonable objection.

My guess is that the current default game will remain the most popular when you introduce restriced version, based on the current frequecy of normal/forced descent games. If people want to play a no-scum game, they can pick forced descent; apparently they do not. Maybe whatever restricion you come up with can be bound to, or replace, the forced desent option.
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Old March 26, 2016, 19:52   #42
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Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Forced descent is also an option, but it seems to be rarely used compared to the default.
I'm curious if you have any numbers for how many people play forced-descent vs. "normal". Personally I think it's the best way to play since it means I can't scum indefinitely and thus each level becomes more important. Of course as a non-default option I'd guess it doesn't get much visibility.

I wonder how many of our players aren't even aware of birth options...?
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Old March 26, 2016, 20:19   #43
Therem Harth
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Hmm. I'll have to try forced-descent.

For some reason, I like the idea of a variant with forced-descent and auto-ID. Maybe I'll make Neoband like that (once I fix the freaking balance issues).
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Old March 26, 2016, 20:28   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
No selling is an option, and while the majority of players seems to be using it, the old way of play is still available. Forced descent is also an option, but it seems to be rarely used compared to the default. As long as whatever major change for the endgame is implemented is made optional, there cant be any reasonable objection.

My guess is that the current default game will remain the most popular when you introduce restriced version, based on the current frequecy of normal/forced descent games. If people want to play a no-scum game, they can pick forced descent; apparently they do not. Maybe whatever restricion you come up with can be bound to, or replace, the forced desent option.
FWIW, I personally haven't played forced_descent because it sounds too harsh. I'd love something "mid-way" between that and infinite scumming. It's not that I think I couldn't possibly win -- I very probably could -- but I want a little flexibility in how I navigate the levels.

EDIT: I think this "sounds scary" factor is a huge factor in people not choosing it -- plus the obvious thing of people not actually being aware of birth options in the first place. Plus... people who haven't tried it can't judge if it'll be fun; see "no_selling". (I was semi-opposed to start, but after playing a few games (because default) I don't play any other way any more.)

Last edited by AnonymousHero; March 26, 2016 at 20:34.
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Old March 26, 2016, 21:51   #45
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We absolutely should be making an effort to ensure that the rules of the game encourage fun playstyles.
This is true, but we also don't want to be too heavy-handed about it.

Here's another list of possible tweaks to address fizzix' vault-scumming strategy:
  • Save the level as the player leaves it, have them return to the same one if they take the stairs again too quickly
  • Make chance of a vault dependent on time spent on previous level
  • Have vault treasure get closer to just regular floor treasure the deeper you get
  • EDIT: Make *destruction* have a chance to destroy the floor and drop you a level, increasing with the number of times it's been used on the level

My feeling on this issue is it's not as cut and dried as the selling/no-selling one. Rather than a single change, I think the answer to this one is more likely to be in a number of smaller changes - and ideally they would be changes that make the game better in other ways, too.
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Last edited by Nick; March 26, 2016 at 22:22. Reason: evil idea
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Old March 26, 2016, 23:31   #46
Estie
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I'm curious if you have any numbers for how many people play forced-descent vs. "normal". Personally I think it's the best way to play since it means I can't scum indefinitely and thus each level becomes more important. Of course as a non-default option I'd guess it doesn't get much visibility.

I wonder how many of our players aren't even aware of birth options...?
I dont have numbers, but I read the new ladder entries for vanilla almost every day (from the frontpage). Forced descent is very rare indeed from what I see there.

People who are unaware of birth options are probably not candidates for forced descent or other "hard" options.

Another effective and less stringent anti-scum option is disconnected stairs - if only it was less "gamey" a solution...
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Old March 26, 2016, 23:40   #47
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I wonder how many of our players aren't even aware of birth options...?
I seem to recall that they were much more prominent in older versions. I often forget about them when I start a new dynasty, leading me to want to claw my eyes out when I see a level feeling.* On edit to complete my thought: Maybe we could look into ways to change the UI for that first screen to really highlight birth options again?


* I always used to play with level feelings until I saw suggestions of turning them off (probably from Derakon). It helped me immensely with the new style of gameplay, as opposed to the old memorize-every-tile way.
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Old March 26, 2016, 23:59   #48
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@Nick

I LOVE that idea for *destruction*.
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Old March 27, 2016, 00:18   #49
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Maybe we could look into ways to change the UI for that first screen to really highlight birth options again?
FAangband has this

Seriously, have a look at the opening screens and see what you think. I don't think it's optimal, but it may be the basis for something that can come into V.
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Old March 27, 2016, 00:18   #50
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I tend not to play forced descent because I scum more rather then less with it on. If I've got an infinite number of levels I can dive as fast as I want safe in the knowledge I won't reach a point where I'm stuffed if I lack a critical item. This is particularly critical on a priest with forced descent & no-recall. There's just a depth you don't want to reach without having fixed your detection issue. So you end up clearing levels way to easy for your character just in case. The priest is already a slow enough grind without having to do that.
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