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Old February 11, 2011, 15:21   #11
Xaxyx
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
I've won, and I never used any cheat options or spoilers. It is possible.
I acknowledge your assertion and admire your confidence. But I'm sorely tempted to suspect that you may, in fact, be mistaken. I believe that you may have unknowingly or unwittingly used spoilers (and, thus, have cheated). That's because you read this forum.

You read this forum, and thus glean information about the game. Information about monsters. Information that, according to the creators of Angband, can and should only be acquired within the confines of the game. Thus you may have gained an in-game advantage via external means. If so, then you are a cheater. Just like me.

Unless, of course, you can state with absolute certainty and clarity, that you've never -- NOT ONCE, in your entire Angband career -- acquired any new information on this forum about a monster?

How far does this reach, I wonder? You've expanded the discussion beyond just the "know full monster info" flag and into the wider realm of spoilers in general. Did you learn the entire combat system through trial and error? Did you learn the efficacy of various resistances against their appropriate damage types via experimentation? Did you discover the various breakpoints of character stats and blows and shots and what-not by building your own charts, reverse-engineering your own formulae?

Which files qualify as "spoilers" and which are merely guides? Is looking at the in-game help file on classes and races equivalent to browsing a spoiler? Is reading the patch log file from version X to version Y a spoiler since it invariably exposes information about the game's inner workings? Where does this end?

Greater Basilisks can breathe nexus. If you'd discovered that on your own already, and have memorized the fact, then I envy both your thoroughness and your recall. If not, then I just made you cheat. And that's just plain ridiculous.
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Old February 11, 2011, 15:31   #12
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
IIRC probing now reveals pretty much everything if not everything of the monster. At least in 3.1.2 it did reveal everything, not sure if it changed again in 3.2.
Yeah, IFAIK probing reveals everything. Every melee attack, damage from such attacks, all side effect arising from such attacks. Every breath attack and approx or max damage from breath attacks. Every spell that can be cast and how often. How many HP's and AC and likelihood to hit. EDIT: Oh yeah, and for ALL monster in LOS, not just one.

That's all fine if you want to carry a rod of probing and waste a turn using it. I do this quite often. IMO it's too much info not to be considered cheating if you choose to simply know it by default.

New players should be clueless. More experienced players have RL memories that can guide them to making logical choices even when facing an unknown enemy. That usually boils down to either probing, taking a chance, or running away.

Not knowing is part of the game. In almost every case, maybe even in every case, of not knowing, the game provides an in game way to discover what you need to know (detection/mapping/probing/esp/etc...). Using outside the game help is IMO, even more now than before this thread started, cheating.

If you to be PC about it, call it EASY_MODE or BEGINNER_MODE or IM_OMNIPOTENT_BY_RITE_OF_BIRTH, but that's just useless window dressing.
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Old February 11, 2011, 15:40   #13
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We could solve this problem with new monster flags.. RANDOM_BREATH, RANDOM_LOW_BREATH, RANDOM_HIGH_BREATH. It's not like breath weapons are super thematically consistent anyway (c.f. Greater Basilisks breathing nexus) so I don't think there'd be anything too bad about Great Hell Wyrms being able to breath darkness one game and light the next. It'd sure make probing more useful.
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Old February 11, 2011, 15:54   #14
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Wait a sec, what this guy wants is affirmation that he's not cheating, and the option is in the wrong place, and that he's using the only option for winning.
Yeah, ignore the fact that pretty much everyone here never used the cheat_know option to win first.
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Old February 11, 2011, 16:26   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaxyx View Post
I acknowledge your assertion and admire your confidence. But I'm sorely tempted to suspect that you may, in fact, be mistaken. I believe that you may have unknowingly or unwittingly used spoilers (and, thus, have cheated). That's because you read this forum.
I can make that claim. I won when spoilers were still considered as spoilers, and such thing as forum didn't exist and I didn't yet read newsgroup. In old version which is way harder than this current one.

It is quite doable. You don't actually need to know what monsters can do as long as you follow few basic principles:

1) get main resists (basic 4 & poison)
2) be faster than it is or IOW don't allow double-moves.
3) read monster description
4) have enough HP

Following those rules no monster can kill you unless you make some stupid mistake. You learn very fast the rule #1, rest comes naturally with careful playing.
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Old February 11, 2011, 16:32   #16
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hi sorry to interrupt, i think u are taking the OP the wrong way, i dont think he is wanting affirmation of anything~ i think he has proven that the knowledge is known, and it isnt cheating. online is everything,

btw imo all cheat options are loz and i havnt tried any and i won.

thats not to say i didnt google say the voice of sauron etc, ~

and thats not to say thats to say ive not cheated, but imo i havnt

thats just how it is now, ee
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Old February 11, 2011, 16:35   #17
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I'm with Timo, I'm afraid: wins in Vanilla, Steam, ToME and some oddities (e.g. Fury) prior to ever visiting a forum or reading any extra-game information.

The fact that I'm even here to post this is an aberration - I happened to be posting a file dump of my first character in a long time, and noticed the provocative thread title. Still, certainly add to the dataset: yes, getting information to which (by game rules) you're not entitled is cheating, and yes it is not only possible but really not that hard to win without doing so.

Is cheating in your manner _bad_? Don't see why - makes you happy, doesn't harm anyone. But trying to claim that everyone else must have done what you did is somewhere between naive, luicrous, and insulting.
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Old February 11, 2011, 16:42   #18
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I can't make the claim, but it's not that hard. Just as Timo mentioned. I learnt a lot in O, without knowing anything about the forums, although I looked at the artifact spoiler because ID was not *ID*. Now in current V there would be no reason to cheat, and indeed I haven't yet used the spoiler or anything.
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Old February 11, 2011, 16:51   #19
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ewan, I have to disagree on that last point. He is not saying that everyone should use it, just that you can not win without it.
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Old February 11, 2011, 17:13   #20
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My first wins were with frog-knows. I didn't use spoilers.

That said, I also savescummed shamelessly. Given that this was something like twenty years ago, I can't remember how many of those savescums were due to sudden death as opposed to getting greedy; presumably some of them were.
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