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Old September 19, 2007, 23:40   #11
tigen
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I used to save scum a lot but ultimately I find the game more fun without it. The "thrill of victory" just isn't the same without the "agony of defeat" to balance it out. I used to play all games in a save-scummy way (for example, Civilization) but it makes the game experience feel completely pointless. If there is no death, then ultimately there is no achievement. It devolves into www.progressquest.com.

Playing "for real" requires a change in attitude and tactics that may be hard to overcome (and I haven't... it's generally why I die). For example, you have to actually be prepared with escape and healing devices, and actually use them to escape from situations, and actually give up loot. The game is not forgiving, but it does give you many ways to escape, and any loot or monster you run from can always appear later in the game (unless you have preserve=off).

I think it doesn't have to be all or nothing. A resurrection mechanic could work in a *band as long as the cost is significant. For example losing equipment and/or having abilities permanently damaged (max stat--?) could be penalty enough. If the penalty was too much then it would be pointless and players would just start over (or save scum). If you could "insure" your life and equipment at cost, it would give gold another purpose.

A benefit to allowing resurrections is that it should allow for a riskier (and therefore more fun) playstyle. It could also allow more flexibility in the game design; for example not being as generous with escape methods.
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Old September 20, 2007, 05:10   #12
pamperedpeterson
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Wow, yeah, my hours of thought and effort in Angband, whilst save-scumming, are comparable to PQ. yeah. ooops, my eyes just rolled out of my head. be right back!
*pause*

For real, though, thanks to all who commented with tips on how to overcome the fear of dying.
Honestly, though, I did feel quite an accomplishment when I defeated the game "my way". I had been playing it for about 10 years at that point! Now it's over 12, and I think after 12 years of playing a game it's really hard to change the way you do it.
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Old September 20, 2007, 12:25   #13
Dragonboneman
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It might sound strange, but you really should learn to love permanent death. It's one of the main reasons why I've been playing *bands (almost always V) for three or four years while countless other games gather dust on my shelves.
With so many modern games, and RPGs are one of the biggest genres for this, winning is more or less inevitable. Save points mean you get to repeat any hard bit until you finally get through it, and when the credits roll you feel relief as much as anything.
With roguelikes, if you don't savescum you genuinely have something at stake, namely the time investment you've put into reaching that point in the game and the prospect of having to do it all over again if you die. The further into the game you get, the greater the feeling of suspense. For all the graphical whizzbangery offered in the latest commercial games, no other game boss has caused me to feel as much dread as that grey letter "P", or made me practically dance around the room at the moment of victory.

Last edited by Dragonboneman; September 20, 2007 at 12:32.
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Old September 20, 2007, 17:27   #14
Djabanete
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What Dragonboneman said. After Angband, I've never found any non-permadeath RPG to be very interesting at all. You can come back after you die? .... That's just so ... wimpy.

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Old September 20, 2007, 18:12   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post

What Dragonboneman said. After Angband, I've never found any non-permadeath RPG to be very interesting at all. You can come back after you die? .... That's just so ... wimpy.

It becomes a test of attrition rather than of skill. Really, anyone could win Angband if they tried long enough with a save/reload feature.
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Old September 21, 2007, 14:27   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigen View Post
If there is no death, then ultimately there is no achievement. It devolves into www.progressquest.com.
Sorry for the off-topic but, THANK YOU!
My god. I've been trying to remember this game's name for over six years. It's not that I really cared or I want to play it, but finding something you've been searching for so long is quite satisfying.

Once again, thank you for mentioning this game
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Old September 23, 2007, 01:29   #17
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I've been playing angband since.. err.. the early nineties I think, on my amiga at the start. In all that time, I have never save scummed. I'm not a hardcore player, just on and off over the years, and in that time, I've won once but I'm still playing it and right now, Ive got a clvl 36 rogue cruising stat gain and I'm still having fun.

I guess the trick is to be cautious. be able to escape and don't be a hero. if a baddy is too tough for you, run like hell, they'll turn up again one day. use detection spells regularly to inform you of traps and monsters so you're not too surprised at what's round the corner.

keep wands of teleport away handy so if you find a vault with loot, you can zap away the big fellas, clear out the small fry, stock up on loot and WoR out. that's the kind of thing you need to be thinking about.

also, tactical play definately comes into it's own. never get into fights in rooms (unless the baddies are trivial). lure your enemies into corridors so that at worst, you can only ave 2 ppl hitting you. try and be around a corner, so that if you have a cirridor of hounds, they can't all breathe on you etc. (basic stuff I know).

just play cautiously and you'll be fine, or at least that's how *I* play

dave
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Old September 23, 2007, 12:53   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamperedpeterson View Post
So, is this a clean win? or should I stop doing that, and simply start over when I die?
Use the "cheat_death" option in the games cheat options key: =

That way your dumps get properly marked. Sometimes it's better for your playing style to use this, sometimes it's better to start over. If you died and didn't realise why that happened it could be better to continue with the current character. If you know you'd made a mistake - start over.

After activating that game option your savegame isn't immediatly marked, but after you made the decision to continue after death.
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Old September 27, 2007, 23:20   #19
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Congratulations!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pamperedpeterson View Post
I was intro'd to Angband in 1995. I played off and on for several years, then tried with a vengeance again in 2005. After several weeks of playing a few hours each day, I finally won the game. BUT after reading some posts here, it seems I may have a dirty win. I would save the game as I went, and if I died, I would re-open the game before I got the tombstone, and play with a different action. It seems impossible to me to play the game without doing so, and still get past exp level 25.
So, is this a clean win? or should I stop doing that, and simply start over when I die?
thx
Still: Congratulations on the win! Even with savescumming. :-)

The game is hard enough even then. You might consider savecumming as that you did indeed start the game over with a new character, but without the frustration of having to crawl yourself through the boring first 20 levels again, and again, and again...[1]

How many times did you think you reloaded?


Cheers,

Peter.

[1] Which for me is the reason I suspend playing it for some years after a while - it becomes an attrition game like someone said B4.
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Old September 28, 2007, 08:34   #20
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I started with save scumming too. But, after I reached DLvl 80 or so I decided to take the challenge and began playing with accepting the final death.
The following games were somewhat frustrating since I accountered numberless death experiences.
IMO this is the only way to enhance your gameplay and give you hints what you really should avoid.
Main killers are greed, boredom, over confidence and along with both of the latter the keyboard cache.

I finally managed to win the game (with a Dunadan paladin, which appears a pretty easy combo) this year.

At the moment I'm playing with random artifacts because I thought this would give a new thrill to me. But it only seems to make the rare *identify* scrolls more important and also caused some gasps on my side regarding rediculous artifact creations of the RNG.

Last edited by Mondkalb; September 28, 2007 at 13:51.
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