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Old September 2, 2009, 02:31   #1
Arphod
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Let me start by saying I seriously respect the work that people are doing on V, and kudos to those that are helping with feedback for development.

That said:

I've been playing Angband for about a long damn time. I've won twice. I love this game. My girlfriend is a diehard gamer, and still she calls me 'nerd' when she walks by when I'm playing. I love this game. But I must throw pennies. I say that this latest beta, 3.1.1.1.1.9, or whatever it's called, is so drastic of a change from 3.0.9b, which is my love, that I'm not sure how to deal.

The changes in prices, rarities, pacing, et al., make it a completely different experience. While I know that these changes were intentional, they really are *very* abrupt changes. It feels like a new game entirely, not merely a new version. I'm not a player who loves the divedivedivedivedive mentality that seems to be prevalent here; the kind of play that only lauds the smallest turncount possible. We don't all play that way. My first win was 25 million turns. It was still a win, and I still danced around the room, knocking over various lamps and brac-a-brac.

My point is that V seems to have become a player's game, instead of a game. It feels elitist.

That's all. Don't kill me.
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Old September 2, 2009, 02:43   #2
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Good work - multiple viewpoints are a Good Thing. The game becoming too narrow would be a Bad Thing. And the more detail you can give about which changes you like and which you don't, the better.
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Old September 2, 2009, 08:26   #3
Mondkalb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arphod View Post
Let me start by saying I seriously respect the work that people are doing on V, and kudos to those that are helping with feedback for development.

That said:

I've been playing Angband for about a long damn time. I've won twice. I love this game. My girlfriend is a diehard gamer, and still she calls me 'nerd' when she walks by when I'm playing. I love this game. But I must throw pennies. I say that this latest beta, 3.1.1.1.1.9, or whatever it's called, is so drastic of a change from 3.0.9b, which is my love, that I'm not sure how to deal.

The changes in prices, rarities, pacing, et al., make it a completely different experience. While I know that these changes were intentional, they really are *very* abrupt changes. It feels like a new game entirely, not merely a new version. I'm not a player who loves the divedivedivedivedive mentality that seems to be prevalent here; the kind of play that only lauds the smallest turncount possible. We don't all play that way. My first win was 25 million turns. It was still a win, and I still danced around the room, knocking over various lamps and brac-a-brac.

My point is that V seems to have become a player's game, instead of a game. It feels elitist.

That's all. Don't kill me.
I have similiar feelings.
I like the changes with game handling and overall improvement of UI.
I am missing more and more flavour, like others have mentioned, the disappearence of various useless items such as skeletons, broken items,filthy rags and whatnot.
The changes regarding the shop supplies are also not my cup of tea (same for the changes to monster drops).

I don't bother how many turns it will last to win. I want to play, have fun and maybe win every now and then.
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Old September 2, 2009, 16:06   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondkalb View Post
I have similiar feelings.
I like the changes with game handling and overall improvement of UI.
I am missing more and more flavour, like others have mentioned, the disappearence of various useless items such as skeletons, broken items,filthy rags and whatnot.
The changes regarding the shop supplies are also not my cup of tea (same for the changes to monster drops).

I don't bother how many turns it will last to win. I want to play, have fun and maybe win every now and then.
I think a lot of the streamlining of objects to get rid of too much junk resulted in a much smoother playing of the game for a skilled player but a weaker experience for a newer player. The expert players are going to zip down to dlevel 20 right away anyways, so having junk appear on levels 1-20 shouldn't really affect them.

When I first played Angband, I went to the general store and bought some wine assuming that it would have a different useful effect from the food. I figured out it was worthless soon after. I also wound up carrying around something like a skull or a broken sword because it was the first one I'd ever seen, and figured it would have a use. It didn't. Instead of saying, 'these objects are useless and I should erase them from the game' I instead assumed that they must have previously had a use and spent a deal of time wondering what the uses could've been. Kind of like the human appendix.

So...isntead of TMJ, maybe we should try to find a use for some of the junk. Even if it's a very minor use. Kind of like the way torches are now useful because you can't buy a lantern right away.

Since I'm always one to spout out crazy ideas, here are some that I've come up with.

Skeletons, skulls, broken swords ~ could indicate that there is a dangerous monster or less dangerous unique nearby/on the level.
Pottery shards ~ could indicate that there is a useful scroll/potion/wand/book nearby. Assuming that you would protect these, maybe. A stretch. Alternatively, shards could be very useful projectiles for slings, maybe doing damage similar to oil but breaking immediately.
Bottles of wine, crusts of bread ~ If dropped in town, all aware monsters will head towards it and whoever picks it up will fall back asleep there or something. Maybe urchins like bread and veterans like wine. This way, you have a way of heading off the mean spirited mercenary before he kills you when you have yet to enter the dungeon. Or maybe filthy rags (or anything else) can be thrown into a group of urchins and they fight over it (confused for n turns)

These things will obviously only be useful for a small portion of the game, but that's ok. Many of the things in shops and in the dungeon are only useful for a small portion of the game. However, they do add the flavor back in, and they bring an idea of 'what can i use this for?' back in for a wider range of objects.
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Old September 2, 2009, 16:10   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arphod View Post
The changes in prices, rarities, pacing, et al., make it a completely different experience. While I know that these changes were intentional, they really are *very* abrupt changes. It feels like a new game entirely, not merely a new version. I'm not a player who loves the divedivedivedivedive mentality that seems to be prevalent here; the kind of play that only lauds the smallest turncount possible. We don't all play that way. My first win was 25 million turns. It was still a win, and I still danced around the room, knocking over various lamps and brac-a-brac.

My point is that V seems to have become a player's game, instead of a game. It feels elitist.
Well, this is partly why we have both a "stable" and a "beta" version out there (if we ignore 3.1.0 for the moment, 3.0.9b is stable and 3.1.1 is beta). The beta version is where people get to test these changes in a fairly bug-free game and give their feedback. So it's perfectly fine to say that there are things you don't like about it - but please get specific about what they are. Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with it feeling like a different game, but there are clearly some aspects of that feeling that you don't like - why does it feel elitist? Most people are saying that it's got quite a lot easier (with the larger number of good/great drops) rather than harder - so you presumably don't mean elitist as in more difficult. In what way does it seem geared to people playing to minimise turncount? I guess there's the introduction of scrolls of Deep Descent, but I can't think of anything else which directly impacts this. The attempt to eliminate "stat gain" has if anything had the opposite effect: it actually penalises divers, who now often finish the game without maxed stats.

To declare my interest, I did the pricing stuff, which I know a few people don't really like, but most don't seem to mind and many appreciate the added consistency. I can honestly say that it wasn't done to drive the game in any particular direction in terms of speed or difficulty or anything else. It was purely to try and make it more internally consistent. I think the whole issue of pricing is dwarfed by the larger issue of what is the town for (what's guaranteed to be in which shop, what you can and can't buy or sell etc. etc.).

I also did the new randarts - again, just because I wanted to improve on the old ones, not because I had any particular agenda - and a few other bits and pieces (the monster list window, the dynastic character numbering and so on). I do now play as a "diver", trying to minimise turncount - but I played for a good seven years or so as a completer-finisher, clearing every level at least once, often two or three times. So I hope I have an understanding of the different styles of play.

Thanks for starting the discussion.
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Old September 2, 2009, 17:06   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Skeletons, skulls, broken swords ~ could indicate that there is a dangerous monster or less dangerous unique nearby/on the level.
I find this suggestion appealing.

EDIT: I also miss Narsil.
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Old September 2, 2009, 17:13   #7
Mondkalb
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I remember wandering the dungeon wearing a broken dagger of westernesse (for fa or si) and a filthy rag of elvenkind ...
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Old September 2, 2009, 17:15   #8
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*sigh*
I remember wandering the dungeon wearing a broken dagger of westernesse (for fa or si) and a filthy rag of elvenkind ...
Level 6 Half-Elf Hobo
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Old September 2, 2009, 17:18   #9
Mondkalb
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The filthy rag outlived the hobo phase because it was some very useful high resistance (can't remember).
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Old September 2, 2009, 18:15   #10
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*sigh*
I remember wandering the dungeon wearing a broken dagger of westernesse (for fa or si) and a filthy rag of elvenkind ...
A broken dagger of westernesse is probably what got me started diving.

I'd also trade ego plate mail for ego filthy rag every time.
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