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Old September 30, 2007, 19:46   #31
aricz
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Yeps, that's what I've heard too. When you're in deep shiaaat, read "scroll of teleport level".

But the <> and WoR into a nonlit room, without telepathy.. or first step 'detect' and BAM "breathes --more--". Not sure if any monsters which can't be detected by telepathy can kill you like that.
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Old September 30, 2007, 21:27   #32
Djabanete
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Drolems can.
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Old October 1, 2007, 10:06   #33
Mondkalb
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This leads to the many advantages of high stealth, which might prevent such unfortunate constellations.
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Old December 1, 2007, 02:41   #34
Orion071
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Hi, my first post on these boards.

I found this site as I was searching for a way to kill Morgoth. I've just completed my first ever win with no save-scumming or even level-scumming (boring? maybe, but I didn't even know it was an option until I came here. ) Sure, he was a Dunadan Ranger (vanilla 3.0.6), but man it feels great to finally get a win.

I did use some of the 'slightly cheating' techniques like anti-summoning corridors, but I consider that one of the advantages of playing a character with a stone-to-mud spell.

So, yes, it can be done!
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Old December 1, 2007, 03:22   #35
Daven_26d1
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Originally Posted by Orion071 View Post
I did use some of the 'slightly cheating' techniques like anti-summoning corridors, but I consider that one of the advantages of playing a character with a stone-to-mud spell.
There is nothing even 'slightly cheating' about shaping the dungeon to your advantage. Using stone to mud (or even digging, if you have time to set it up) in this way is a totally valid tactic.

There are lots of tactical options (like LOS abuse, and getting in a free shot by firing point blank before meleeing an equal speed opponent, if you get 2 shots with your bow) that feel like cheating, but shouldn't be considered so because the games interface allows them. These cases are examples of an exploitable imperfect system, but in the case of tricks with stone to mud, things like that are part of the intent of the spell, AFAIK.

Congrats on the win!
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Old December 1, 2007, 03:55   #36
nobody
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what else are you going to use stone to mud for?
and pillar dancing would work with someone your faster then in RL, of course it works in angband and it's crazy to call it cheating

autoscumming will almost certainly be gone in 3.1.0, so that point is almost moot now.

savescumming is evil and morally wrong

Last edited by nobody; December 1, 2007 at 04:01.
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Old December 1, 2007, 12:54   #37
darkdrone
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its all a learning process. and real life you cant start over either ... OR go back and do things right ... so why would it be different in *Band ?

to be honest, i used to do Save-Scum when i began , but after a while it got boring.
i agree its annoying to lose one's "best Character EVER" but hey its *Band , you'll get a BETTER character eventually .... thats called 'replay value'

My pointers on not to save-scum and yet enjoy the game.

1. learn from your mistakes and dont make them again.

2. learn to run away.

3. 'L'ook effectively , sometimes a 'a' is not a regular a but a Queen Ant !!

4. ask the Old Hands of Band either here or r.g.r.a - you ALWAYS get something helpful...

best wishes,
dD
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Old December 1, 2007, 16:31   #38
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what else are you going to use stone to mud for?
1 - a means to access vaults with that gnome thief who gets all slow (-2) just looking at a pick.

2 - clearing pits. Slime pits cause a problem once you've fireballed everything from the door and you have to actually enter the pit; taking out the corners, one at a time & quickly, so you aren't hassled by fresh spawning monsters takes the strain off a bit, and in fact the 4 way crossfire should give you enough room to cleanse most of them entirely with beams and balls.

3 - opening 'doors' from a distance, so that you dont get instantly triple turned by the crazy fast unique on the other side.

other uses too, though similar to the ones mentioned already in thread. Some variants let you hurt stone creatures with the spell, which is handy if they resist your only weapon. Can't remember if this is true in V or not.
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Old December 6, 2007, 06:10   #39
Jothar Hillpeople
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Glorfindel save-scummed too, but nobody says anything...

The game is much different without save-scumming, more rewarding, with more thinking. Of course, not everyone has the time or patience to invest in getting a character up to level 41 and then getting killed by a creature and having to start all over again. If you're married with kids and hold down a real job, this is even harder to do. Save scumming is ok as long as you don't claim it's a win the "hard-core" way.

Of course, the gameplay is much more compelling below level 40 anyway. The later leveling is long and boring.
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Old December 6, 2007, 13:50   #40
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what else are you going to use stone to mud for?
and pillar dancing would work with someone your faster then in RL, of course it works in angband and it's crazy to call it cheating
Leaving aside, for a moment, the fact that Angband isn't real life... to pillar dance in real life you would need a calculator, time to use it, and an exact numeric measure of your speed and your opponents speed. In real life, even if you are a bit quicker than I am, if you step from behind a pillar and throw a punch at me and I slip it, I don't think you will be able to step behind the pillar before I can hit you back, or start to grapple.

But Angband isn't real life. The problem with pillar dancing is that it allows you to kill even the most dangerous adversary with _no_ risk at all. It's not cheating, but it is not clean, IMHO.

There are a lot of ways to abuse the Angband system without touching a savefile. Some of them make V, at least, pretty trivial. Some just make it a bit easier.

As for ASCs... they're certainly not cheating, but they do make the game a _lot_ easier. This is a matter of personal preference, but I would consider a win using ASCs a very different thing than a win without them. At least before floor stacking there was some price to be paid for them. Now they just turn the most dangerous uniques in the game into treasure chests. Actually, I think this is the biggest area of unbalance in V. I think the best solution would be to make the ASC impossible, and slightly tone down the worst summoners.
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