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Old December 18, 2007, 16:12   #41
Eagle
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I've been playing this game for over 15 years. Started with Rogue, then Moria and (Z)angband.
Vanilla was and is my favorite. The first years I save-scummed a lot. Then I got into the game. Digging up all kind of resources on the internet and by experience about weapon damages, when do I get an extra swing (STR/DEX tabels), what resistence do I need from what level onwards, and so on. This knowledge played a crucial part in being able to win this game with no savescum abuse. My first Mage-win is still, 10 years later, a highlight in my gamehistory. That year I also won with a Priest and a Ranger.
After that I'm trying to win the game with a warrior, but I never got close again. Basically because my knowledge of the game mechanics has weakenen. The game has changed, and I forgot some things. That's why I allways die a stupid death. Going too deep, too soon. And things like that.
Does that make me sad?
No, I like death. It gives me the change to start again, and rejoice killing Wormtongue (again), finding the Phial (again) and every other good thing this game has to offer.
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Old December 23, 2007, 03:17   #42
Pete Mack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamperedpeterson View Post
I was intro'd to Angband in 1995. I played off and on for several years, then tried with a vengeance again in 2005. After several weeks of playing a few hours each day, I finally won the game. BUT after reading some posts here, it seems I may have a dirty win. I would save the game as I went, and if I died, I would re-open the game before I got the tombstone, and play with a different action. It seems impossible to me to play the game without doing so, and still get past exp level 25.
So, is this a clean win? or should I stop doing that, and simply start over when I die?
As others have said, it's not a clean win. But no, you don't need to start over.

Save a character at dl 20 (or just a few levels before you tend to run into trouble) and keep starting from there until you get to the next milestone without dying, around dl 40. If you get bored with the character, start another one and use that instead. (I consider every 20 levels to be a milestone in strategy.) Starting from dl 1 when you are focusing on dl 25 is too much trouble. But starting from where you died is a really big mistake--you can't learn from your errors then.

BTW: death at cl 25 is usually because you don't have enough CCW and/or a source of escape (ie teleportation). You should have at least a staff of Teleportation in case you get mobbed by hummerhorns or fireflies. Scrolls of Teleport Level (and *Destruction*, but it's rare) are the very best way to escape really dire trouble with low HP. Always buy out the black market if you see them for sale.
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Old January 13, 2008, 03:37   #43
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I've always considered any intentional use of -Clone Monster to be a severe form of cheating, second only to save scumming in heinousness, and the equal of breeder farming.

Then again, maybe that's why I've played for years and never won a game. It's surprising to me that cloning hasn't been mentioned on this thread. What do you think? Is cloning legit?

I guess I have pretty high standards for what constitutes cheating. I'm starting to feel that even object detection is cheap. You can just keep going from level to level looking for the objects you want. I turned off connected stairs to prevent this, but with stair detection it doesn't take that long to scum anyway.
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Old January 13, 2008, 06:48   #44
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@Zero: I feel that anything you are allowed to do within the framework of the game is perfectly legit. Thus, in my view, any game in which there are safe, profitable, and infinitely repeatable actions (such as stairscumming or wyrm cloning) is inherently "broken". You may try to "fix" the game by changing the options or setting arbitrary restrictions for yourself (I do both), but in doing so, you're just basically covering up the flaws of a flawed game. Taking advantage of such actions is not cheating --- it's playing the game *as the game actually is*.

But I agree that it's less rewarding.

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Old January 23, 2008, 09:43   #45
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The main problem with *band is, that newbies need pretty much endurance to proceed because there are so many new and unkowns monsters and uniques, the deeper you go. Many of them are extremely dangerous and you only will know that when you are almoust or already dead.
Without enough perseverance people are likely to give up after serveral sudden deaths.

This had been one reason for me to play with save scumming for quite a long time until I had reached a level of reasonable knowledge (and a monster memory to remember this knowledge).

The game is still dangerous and I can't keep track of all the deadly abilities and breath attacks that any monster may have. Every time I start with a new char and therefore without any monster memory my heroes keep dying for unforeseen and daffy reasons.
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Old January 23, 2008, 21:32   #46
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Originally Posted by Mondkalb View Post
The main problem with *band is, that newbies need pretty much endurance to proceed because there are so many new and unkowns monsters and uniques, the deeper you go. Many of them are extremely dangerous and you only will know that when you are almoust or already dead.
Without enough perseverance people are likely to give up after serveral sudden deaths.
I don't consider that a 'problem'. That's a game feature.

I actually enjoy discovering new things and trying to figure out what to do under yet another dire circumstance. Even if it's with the next character.

IMO, the problem with gaming in general nowadays is that fact that almost everyone expects to 'win' and feels cheated if they don't. Some folks actually enjoy the journey more than the destination. *bands are perfect for these gamers.

With all that being said, play the game how you want to play it. However, you'll always get as much out of it as you put into it.
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Old January 24, 2008, 21:23   #47
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I guess I have a different perspective. I 'save backup' or 'savescumm' all the time. I've been doing it as long as I've played roguelikes. I think the game is more fun when I don't lose hours/days/weeks worth of work. I derive enjoyment from optimizing my character and strategies to the strategies of the monsters I'm fighting and situations I'm encountering. If I wanted serious consequences for my small mistakes, I wouldn't play videogames, I'd become a gunfighter or something.

I guess I also don't care if some people think that's cheating. I'm perfectly happy with other people considering that to be a dirty win. I'm not trying to compete with anybody else. If you *enjoy* the game, that's the most important part in my opinion.

Perhaps when it stops being fun I'll try to find ways of making it more fun again. But, I've been playing for quite a while, and I haven't stopped having fun yet, so I'm not going to hold my breath...
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Old January 25, 2008, 16:43   #48
aeneas
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I guess I have a different perspective.
You've completely missed the point of the game. I can't say that I care that you have... do what is most fun for you. Most of the mechanics of Angband assume that death is death. The game doesn't work if you can restore. So, go ahead, play as you wish. But you are not playing Angband. When you _truly_ get bored you might try the game that the rest of us play. I save-scummed twice when I started playing (in Z). Then I figured out that it made the game useless.
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Old January 25, 2008, 20:56   #49
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Mondkalb brings up a good point. The game has to be forgiving enough for newbies to learn from their mistakes, but not be completely WoW-esque in eliminating risk.

Perhaps the mechanic from the Zelda games would work. Everytime you die, you get the option of quitting, and if you don't, you get teleported back to town, and the game keeps a count of the number of deaths to display on your tombstone and in the score file after you finally do quit. Separate score list for those who die when they should.
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Old January 26, 2008, 04:10   #50
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do what is most fun for you.
I'm glad we can at least agree on this point

I can respect that others (yourself included) don't consider this playing right, and I don't submit my scores or brag about my characters, so I think I'm the only one affected by my choices.

Here's to having fun while playing video games!
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