Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 1, 2010, 19:04   #1
Susramanian
Scout
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 47
Susramanian is on a distinguished road
Identification Reform

Identification reform:
In my more frustrated moments, I've sometimes wished to do away with the identification mechanic altogether. It really is an incredible hassle at times, especially early on for most classes. Those painful early levels have gotten much better with the development of ID by use, but the incentive for using it lasts only so long as identification is relatively costly, which isn't long.

I don't want to get rid of identification completely, as it can still be a source of fun. Who doesn't get a thrill at finding a scroll titled 'gnarf sheeb' thousands of feet down? Or an unknown potion around 1700 feet? Or seeing a 'splendid' or 'special' pseudo ID? The thrill of the mysterious and unexpected is my primary reason for wanting identification around. It's fun to encounter something new and think "What's that?" Also, it does add to the challenges of inventory and gold management, though in a trivial way for much of the game.

What makes me call for a reform is the sheer tedium of it all, especially in the late game where, for every class, the ID mechanic boils down to (at least) an extra keystroke for almost every bit of loot you find. No strategy, no decision making, no challenge, no worries about cost, nothing but a bunch of extra time and keystrokes. And if you're a warrior without a huge stack of Rods of Identify, life sucks.

To put it simply, I want to spend my time finding and earning loot, not pondering it. It seems ridiculous that a battle against a swarm of ancient dragons could take far less time and fewer keystrokes than simply discovering what it was that they were all carrying.

So with the goals of retaining the joy of discovery and simultaneously eliminating tedium, I have a few possible reforms. All of these apply to gear, not potions and wands and the like.

1) Instantly ID everything you walk over except for artifacts. When an artifact is encountered, give it a flavored description. For example, "You see a beautifully-wrought dagger." Or "You see a set of steel gauntlets glowing with power." Maybe tailor the flavor descriptions based on random flags of the item, so Ringil might get described as "a fine, icy longsword." This is the most drastic of my proposed changes, but I think it would actually enhance the joy of discovery in many cases. Hammering your ID macro over a stack of dragon loot and then sifting through it to find an artifact is a nice surprise, but I don't think it compares to seeing the inscription {special} appear on an item in your inventory. Looking at a pile of freshly dropped loot and seeing an Exquisitely-Fashioned Set of Leather Boots would produce a similar feeling, I think.

2) Instantly ID things as described above, but only things of a certain power compared to your experience or level. Starting characters only know about completely non-magical items, level 50 characters recognize everything but artifacts. Never insta-ID artifacts, instead treating them as in suggestion 1. Tune things so that encountering unidentified items is still fairly rare, at least enough to keep the thrill of discovery.

3) Instantly ID average and good weapons and armor, but make ego item ID work like ID with potions and wands and things. You find one holy avenger, you'll recognize another when you see it. Keep artifact ID as in suggestions 1 and 2. Throughout the game, encountering unIDed items remains rare and exciting.

I realize that all of these changes are probably too radical for Vanilla, but I would marry any variant that adopted one of them.

Last edited by Susramanian; March 1, 2010 at 22:05.
Susramanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 16:38   #2
awldune
Adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 113
awldune is on a distinguished road
Even in 3.1.2 it can be very tedious as a warrior with a small stack of identify rods to see what's what after clearing a pit or vault.

NPP has a "Mass Identify" spell/scroll/staff/rod that ID's all items in your pack and on the floor within a certain distance. Hugely helpful when cleaning up after clearing dragon pits, etc.

I wish that were available in V late game.
awldune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 17:35   #3
The GP Fury
Apprentice
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 66
The GP Fury is on a distinguished road
Yeah, that drives me crazy as well. I'm tempted to add an option for "hack'n'slash" mode as a birth option that'd give the character auto_id at start, so that the identification would play more like a standard rpg. *identify* would still be necessary, but that's not as frustrating as going through piles and piles of stuff
__________________
Photography ~ Tech Blog
The GP Fury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 17:45   #4
dhegler
Adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 249
dhegler is on a distinguished road
My two cents... Mass Identify scrolls/rods/staves would be great. I have gotten to like ID-by-use early-game, and really find Identify to be more annoying mid-end game. I don't want to get rid of it, but something that ID's everything in your pack, or in a certain radius would be great.
dhegler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 19:22   #5
The GP Fury
Apprentice
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 66
The GP Fury is on a distinguished road
stupid idea, what if there is a level check on the identify? Like if the player level is over 30 or something it does a full identify?
__________________
Photography ~ Tech Blog
The GP Fury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 20:15   #6
miyazaki
Adept
 
miyazaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: BC, Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 227
miyazaki is on a distinguished road
If ID gets any easier, I may stop playing V.

Artifacts are already instantly revealed on pick-up, pseudo-ID is faster than ever before, *identify* has been removed, _identify has been added, indestructable -IDs have been added, ID-by-use is in full force, some races have been given insta-ID for some items, and squelch settings are being improved.

I like that there is a cost to identifying items, especially early game; I like that it makes inventory management more difficult; I like that it drives up turncount to sift through the detritus of an orc pit.

The current ID system makes classes different (warriors). It makes you think about using your mana to ID things and possibly be caught with your pants down. It makes you think about trying to sneak into a vault and grab an un-IDed amulet and out again. It definitely causes ironman player to make difficult decisions. Once the curses are re-done, it will improve the risk/reward structure of ID-by-use resulting in more tactical choices (hopefully).

Instead of making ID easier, I think it should be made harder: remove the spell from rangers and paladins, increase the cost of scrolls and staves and force players to use ID-by-use. This will make ID less tedious (because it become impractical to ID every last item) and more tactical.
miyazaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 20:40   #7
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by miyazaki View Post
If ID gets any easier, I may stop playing V.

Artifacts are already instantly revealed on pick-up, pseudo-ID is faster than ever before, *identify* has been removed, _identify has been added, indestructable -IDs have been added, ID-by-use is in full force, some races have been given insta-ID for some items, and squelch settings are being improved.

I like that there is a cost to identifying items, especially early game; I like that it makes inventory management more difficult; I like that it drives up turncount to sift through the detritus of an orc pit.

The current ID system makes classes different (warriors). It makes you think about using your mana to ID things and possibly be caught with your pants down. It makes you think about trying to sneak into a vault and grab an un-IDed amulet and out again. It definitely causes ironman player to make difficult decisions. Once the curses are re-done, it will improve the risk/reward structure of ID-by-use resulting in more tactical choices (hopefully).

Instead of making ID easier, I think it should be made harder: remove the spell from rangers and paladins, increase the cost of scrolls and staves and force players to use ID-by-use. This will make ID less tedious (because it become impractical to ID every last item) and more tactical.
Yeah, I think I'm with you. Improving ID-by-use ought to mean that magical ID gets rarer and more expensive. I think we're in an in-between phase where both are relatively easy - so if things develop as I expect, ID will get more tactical/challenging from here.

I have to say ID is not my bag though, so I won't personally be coding any of this. I just think that there's no point having it at all if it's too easy.

As always it's related to a lot of other things though. Reworked curses you already mentioned - critical for making ID by use interesting and viable. Another one is toning down / rebalancing ego drops: less junk means less frustration with ID.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 22:00   #8
ewert
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 525
ewert is on a distinguished road
I'm definitely not in the same camp as miyazaki and Magnate in previous posts. Identifying gets to be a tedium very, very quickly. Reducing tedium usually is good for gameplay experience. Frankly, only way to truly make identify "tactical" instead of just a minor cash sink and possibly a major time-sink, will be to make identify itself rare as in remove spells and making scrolls as rare as *identify* before. Otherwise, it is only a minor cash and major timesink, as in, tedium and inconsequential in the long rung.

With spellcasting classes it just means that until you get the identify spell, you carry scrolls or staves. And for warriors it means you carry scrolls forever pretty much until you get the rod...

Myself, pre-id spell I carry about 20 scrolls "down", use em as I go, and when they are used up it is about time to return anyways. Classes that get the spell can skip that step and not have an extra possible reason to visit town, so it leaves the warrior. For warriors, the scrolls stay as part of inventory till a rod comes along, and then it's a very very boring id, wait, id, wait thing.

I hugely applaud the removal of *identify*. Auto-id for charges, lovely. Also did you lower the ID spell fail chance base? Atleast it felt like that for my current troll mage compared to my previous recollections, or maybe I just confuse with rogue spell chances.

The Mass Identify staves from NPP(?) work great. But considering it all, I could really go for the auto-id on walking over for items of "lower id-rank than character level". Oh and id by use, man that is true tedium. =) Yeah it is useful for the very few first levels before you get enough cash to be able to keep stacks of ID on you without troubles.

I guess ironman is hugely affected by all this, but was it supposed to be that ironman can't be used as the reason to change or keep game mechanics? (I truly don't remember, so am truly asking, not moaning about it )
ewert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 22:12   #9
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,938
Derakon is on a distinguished road
It's been a long time since I found it entertaining to sort through un-identified equipment items. The early game inventory crush is vastly outweighed by the mid- and late-game tedium. Leave ID in for figuring out what flavored items are, but beyond that I support any changes that mean that I don't have to poke at a piece of gear for several turns before deciding what to do with it.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3, 2010, 23:25   #10
Netbrian
Adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 141
Netbrian is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
It's been a long time since I found it entertaining to sort through un-identified equipment items. The early game inventory crush is vastly outweighed by the mid- and late-game tedium. Leave ID in for figuring out what flavored items are, but beyond that I support any changes that mean that I don't have to poke at a piece of gear for several turns before deciding what to do with it.
I second this. Maybe move toward a rune-based system (once you've seen one thing with Slay Orc, you've seen them all), and give classses the ability to automatically sense pluses at a particular level.

(Actually, as far as I'm concerned, things could be identified just by walking over them. Kills the tedium while still forcing people to actually go into the vault to see if the ring of speed is worthwhile.)
Netbrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tweaking identification Derakon Development 7 December 22, 2009 20:48


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.