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Old September 14, 2019, 17:27   #131
gglibertine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Bring back charisma. Also haggling.
I'd be down with charisma coming back if it enabled you to charm monsters into helping you instead of attacking you.

In the days when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, my roommate and I created a Guitarist class for Nethack. The guitar functioned as a battleaxe (of course), and there were throwing picks for a distance weapon. If you played your guitar to a nymph, she would giggle and throw her panties at you, which you could wear as a +1 helmet for no good reason.

Give me a break, it was the 80s and I was 19.
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Old September 14, 2019, 17:56   #132
Diego Gonzalez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gglibertine View Post
I'd be down with charisma coming back if it enabled you to charm monsters into helping you instead of attacking you.

In the days when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, my roommate and I created a Guitarist class for Nethack. The guitar functioned as a battleaxe (of course), and there were throwing picks for a distance weapon. If you played your guitar to a nymph, she would giggle and throw her panties at you, which you could wear as a +1 helmet for no good reason.

Give me a break, it was the 80s and I was 19.
And a necklace made with knobs that go to eleven...
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Old September 14, 2019, 18:00   #133
Pete Mack
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At one point i considered a variant where charisma would be a primary stat, somewhat in a similar vein:
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!...nd/2172NfVjZfE
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Old September 15, 2019, 02:00   #134
Derakon
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D&D has reskinned charisma as a "force of will/presence" kind of stat, and used it as a casting stat for several classes. That said, I feel like stats should have more purpose beyond "a specific class wants it, and everyone else doesn't care". INT and WIS already have this issue, with their secondary benefits being relatively minor.
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Old September 15, 2019, 02:24   #135
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INT has important secondary effects. Being able to use the rod of TO is a big deal. A low INT HT warrior cannot. 100% save is nice, but less important, I agree.
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Old September 15, 2019, 05:05   #136
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The adj_int_dev table in player-calcs.c says that your device skill modifier from INT ranges from 0 to 13, with most of that bonus coming from the upper end of the stat table (as usual). Meanwhile, racial skill modifiers range from 0 (Human) to 22 (Gnome) to -8 (Half-Troll). Both of these are largely overwhelmed by your class modifiers; a warrior will start with 18 before race/INT modifiers and gain an extra 35 over the course of the game, while everyone else is considerably better off (mages start at 36 and gain an extra 65).

So a half-troll warrior will likely start with a skill of 10, and end with a skill of probably around 55-60, assuming decent-but-not-great INT. Similarly, a gnome warrior will start with a skill of 40 and end with a skill of around 80. In both cases their INT has a trivial impact.
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Old September 15, 2019, 09:41   #137
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My thoughts after a few games and my first winner (post to follow when i remember how).

I tend to play HT Warriors or Necromancers but have played the former with the winner and so these will comment on that.

In no order

1) It's harder i think. This is a good thing. The various trees are certainly tough and in the early/mid game they are a real trial as they seem (?) to follow one around a lot and are often hard to escape. Not least the confusion effect caused by some is a pain.
2) I got caught out by the shape changing thing more than once. A Maia changed into a shardstorm in the middle of a large battle and then blasted me with shards (i didn't have resist and was avoiding heavy shard hitters) for a LOT of damage. Nearly killed me. Not sure what i think about this one to be honest as it's a good, in milieu, attribute but it is quite a tricky thing to keep track of and i was almost killed twice by heavy hitters appearing to be innocuous and that's a tough one.
3) Randarts seem well balanced. I had a few tries before winning and in a couple of games I was stymied by just not finding rconf but i think that was merely the RNG. Mostly they seemed fine. I did find a ring giving +2 attack speed with the winner which was awesome but that was about it. I certainly didn't find huge OP items.
4) The food counter is fine. Didn't really notice any issues with it and it did allow closer tracking which with a HT is quite useful.
5) I haven't looked but i hope the potion of death has been removed? WIth no identify scrolls that would be unfair.
6) The rune system works well. Didn't miss the old ID system and i quite like the system now.
7) New monsters...those two "bloody" Maia at the end are really tough...quite surprised me. I presume they are analogues of the missing giants/titans?
8) New rooms are excellent, a nice bit of variety.
9) I'm still slightly disappointed that the best weapon for any given character is often the lightest. This seems wrong. A HT wielding a dagger. This is more specific to V though rather than this version number.
10) Overall the changes (for a warrior) felt positive. It was well judged, harder without being impossible.

I'm going to try some necromancers now.
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Old September 15, 2019, 14:20   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
D&D has reskinned charisma as a "force of will/presence" kind of stat, and used it as a casting stat for several classes. That said, I feel like stats should have more purpose beyond "a specific class wants it, and everyone else doesn't care". INT and WIS already have this issue, with their secondary benefits being relatively minor.
Yeah, I don't think CHA should be linked to physical attractiveness. It has more to do with eloquence, persuasiveness and force of will. I'm not sure how useful that is in a game like Angband, though there's an argument to be made that it could contribute to saving throws. And it could potentially open up additional class options in the future.
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Old September 15, 2019, 14:36   #139
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Sil does a pretty good job of using a stat like charisma.
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Old September 15, 2019, 15:35   #140
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You are right. INT used to be more valuable when there was a breakpoint at skill 53 for high level activations (and at 43 for the rod of TO.) The current implementation has no breakpoint.
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