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Old February 17, 2019, 14:21   #211
MattB
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I love how you actually listen to our "er, feedback".
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Old February 18, 2019, 21:27   #212
Thraalbee
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webs & running

When I walk in webs sometimes I get stuck. When I RUN, webs are not taken into account. I can run back and forth many many times and nothing happens.

Also, webs are not affected by lightning, fireball or acid spray. Ok, I guess, but I would have appreciated some more means to clear them than by hand.
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Old February 18, 2019, 21:45   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraalbee View Post
When I walk in webs sometimes I get stuck. When I RUN, webs are not taken into account. I can run back and forth many many times and nothing happens.

Also, webs are not affected by lightning, fireball or acid spray. Ok, I guess, but I would have appreciated some more means to clear them than by hand.
Thanks, filed as a bug. There is work needed on when they're known and/or visible, too.
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Old February 19, 2019, 22:43   #214
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I will play this new version soon; but one of the things that I've come to appreciate (and even like) about Angband is all the different ways the DL40s are super scary; and knight templars were very formidable in this function. The knight templars fill an important niche as they are one of the few dangerous people that hit hard, cast spells and don't summon much. Is it possible they could remain but get renamed; maybe Corsair Knight? Knight Templars are a good complement to all the other dangerous breathers and summoners; I think he rounds out the midgame bestiary very nicely. I know we have berserkers but they really are a very different animal, quite literally, being more like a monster or a feral barbarian in a blinding rage, trampling over weaker monsters..

Oh, and I also wouldn't mind seeing greedy little gnomes running around in the shallower depths of the dungeons.
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Old February 20, 2019, 05:28   #215
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Here is a summary of the monster changes made on this branch:

5 monsters moved shallower:
Code:
giant black louse
Bert the Stone Troll
Bill the Stone Troll
Tom the Stone Troll
emperor wight
68 monsters moved deeper (and usually buffed):
Code:
Mirkwood spider
hummerhorn
neekerbreeker
phase spider
energy vortex
killer white beetle
giant firefly
wereworm
troll priest
white wraith
ogre mage
colbran
Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain
shade
spectre
mature white dragon
mature blue dragon
mature green dragon
dread
shadow
phantom
grey wraith
mature red dragon
mature gold dragon
mature black dragon
The Queen Ant
mature multi-hued dragon
black wraith
nether wraith
Kavlax the Many-Headed
storm giant
ancient blue dragon
ancient white dragon
ancient green dragon
Uvatha the Horseman
ancient black dragon
ancient red dragon
ancient gold dragon
hezrou
vampire lord
Adunaphel the Quiet
ancient multi-hued dragon
dreadmaster
drolem
death drake
great crystal drake
Akhorahil the Blind
ethereal dragon
Scatha the Worm
Ren the Unclean
Smaug the Golden
Ji Indur Dawndeath
storm of Unmagic
elder vampire
Dwar, Dog Lord of Waw
eye druj
skull druj
great storm wyrm
great ice wyrm
great swamp wyrm
Hoarmurath of Dir
great hell wyrm
great bile wyrm
Great Wyrm of Thunder
Glaurung, Father of the Dragons
Khamûl, the Black Easterling
Great Wyrm of Balance
Great Wyrm of Many Colours
greater Balrog
The Witch-King of Angmar
41 new monsters:
Code:
tamer
witch
old forest tree
blackguard
Old Man Willow
blood falcon
nruling
necromancer
abyss worm mass
Beorn, the Mountain Bear (shape only)
green elf archer
huorn
serpent of the brownlands
abyss spider
black-hearted huorn
Maia of Nienna
Maia of Mandos
lord of Carn Dûm
ancient spider
Maia of Oromë
hasty ent
Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
Maia of Yavanna
Maia of Aulë
great earth elemental (shape only)
werewolf of Sauron
spider of Gorgoroth
Maia of Ulmo
great water elemental (shape only)
Fëanorian raider
Nan, the Giant
Maia of Manwë
Maia of Varda
Makar, the Warrior
serpent of chaos
fury
Wiruin, the Maelstrom
Meássë, the Bloody
Wolf-Sauron (shape only)
Serpent-Sauron (shape only)
Vampire-Sauron (shape only)
23 monsters removed:
Code:
large brown snake
large yellow snake
healer
manes
nighthawk
drider
giant brown tick
lesser Maia
acidic cytoplasm
black pudding
erinyes
aranea
greater Maia
knight Templar
Blue Wizard
elder aranea
Istar
Arien, Maia of the Sun
Ossë, Herald of Ulmo
Radagast the Brown
Polyphemus, the Blind Cyclops
Atlas, the Titan
Kronos, Lord of the Titans
17 monsters renamed:
Code:
jackal to wild dog
dark elf to eastern dwarf
bandit to ruffian
dark elven mage to blacklock mage
dark elven warrior to stonefoot warrior
gnome mage to drúadan mage
dark elven priest to ironfist priest
Easterling warrior to warrior
dark elven lord to dark dwarven lord
Azog, King of the Uruk-Hai to Azog, Enemy of the Dwarves
master rogue to brigand
algroth to troll scavenger
ice troll to snow troll
ninja to southron assassin
necromancer to dúnadan of Angmar
dark elven sorcerer to stiffbeard sorcerer
The Cat Lord to Tevildo, Prince of Cats
20 monsters replaced (usually at the same level, but 6 deeper and 1 shallower):
Code:
raven by crow of Durthang
brown yeek by terrified yeek
hill orc by orc tracker
brigand by rogue
black orc by orc archer
dark elven druid by drúadan druid
half-troll by troll blackguard
giant grey scorpion by giant black scorpion
water troll by hill troll
dagashi by southron archer
greater mummy by mummified chieftain
eldrak by mountain troll
7-headed hydra by 6-headed hydra
9-headed hydra by 7-headed hydra
Medusa, the Gorgon by (non-unique) gorgon
11-headed hydra by 8-headed hydra
The Lernaean Hydra by (non-unique) 9-headed hydra
ethereal hound by hound of Tindalos
Great Wyrm of Chaos by great wyrm of annihilation
Great Wyrm of Law by sky dragon
A few general themes to note:
  • A lot of the buffed/moved deeper monsters are accounted for by an overall rework of wraiths, dragons and ghosts
  • Monsters were usually replaced or removed because of being either (a) in conflict with theme or (b) boring
  • Many of the new monsters (and some of the other changes) were due to overall reworking of Ainur and spiders, introduction of new monster shapes, and introduction of trees/ents
  • Worth noting also are the move to have a monster named after each player class plus a novice version of each, and significant reworks of orcs, trolls and hydras
  • There were also quite a few other changes to existing monsters
and a few more targeted issues and potential further changes:
  • The new lord of Carn Dûm is essentially the old patriarch, and the new patriarch is not far off the old knight Templar; that said, I quite like Grotug's idea of renaming knight Templar as corsair, or something
  • Perhaps Ossë should come back without the nether breath

This is rather a long post, but I think it was worth doing a summary before saying this is ready for master branch. I'm very interested to hear what people think about the totality of this branch. Regardless of all other considerations it's been a lot of fun
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Old February 20, 2019, 06:44   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
This is rather a long post, but I think it was worth doing a summary before saying this is ready for master branch. I'm very interested to hear what people think about the totality of this branch. Regardless of all other considerations it's been a lot of fun
So far I like it a lot. I haven't been too deep (only at 1000' now) and have had to restart a few times. Terrified yeeks certainly add a dimension to earlier levels ("OMG they shrieked and are waking everything up"). Enjoying finding other monster changes and learning how to deal with them.
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Old February 20, 2019, 09:58   #217
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Ok so it seems the work on monsters come to an end. Time to make a review and give my feelings!

"5 monsters moved shallower"

Fine

"68 monsters moved deeper (and usually buffed)"

Fine except:

- hummerhorn
- neekerbreeker

Wat?? They were not annoying enough at their depth now they're buffed??

"41 new monsters"

- tamer, witch, blackguard...

Good. They match player classes and I look forward to adding more to PWMAngband since I have more classes (sorceror, unbeliever...)

- nruling

Sorry, but this is more a snoozing than a name which nobody will ever understand unless lerning the description by heart. I already struggle to remember Hezrou and company, would be better to find a name that's immediately recognizable (hint: I'd also rename the high demons, they're all D&D based and I don't see a meaning in Angband -- could steal the names from Sil no?)

- lord of Carn Dûm

Ow... in PWMAngband, I've renamed to base town Carn Dûm because it's close to the old realm of Angmar and thought it would be a perfect name. I don't see why its lords should be roaming the dungeon

Rest is fine by me.

"23 monsters removed"

- acidic cytoplasm, black pudding

Good riddance!

- erinyes

Don't get it. Why only this one? Like said above, would be better to rename all the D&D demons using Sil names (Rauko), feels more thematic.

- aranea, elder aranea

Don't get it either. Those are perfectly fine, and you added spider of Gorgoroth instead. Clearly it should have been a pure replacement: aranea -> spider of Gorgoroth (the bats with same name come in groups so it should fit the group mob better), elder aranea -> elder spider (well there's that new "ancient spider" too)

Rest is fine by me.

"17 monsters renamed"

- dark elf to eastern dwarf
- dark elven mage to blacklock mage
- dark elven warrior to stonefoot warrior
- dark elven priest to ironfist priest
- dark elven lord to dark dwarven lord
- dark elven sorcerer to stiffbeard sorcerer

Sorry, but that's clearly the change I like the least. The "dark elf" based monsters are a whole and would be replaced by some obscure stuff only a minority of people would understand about. Are those dwarven races? I don't get it... Why not simply use elven names instead? Would have been way easier to remember... Avari, Teleri, Noldor, Sindar...

- ice troll to snow troll

What was wrong with "ice"?

- The Cat Lord to Tevildo, Prince of Cats

Aha! See you can steal stuff from Sil...

"20 monsters replaced"

So what's the difference between "renamed" and "replaced"? Just the depth differs?

- brown yeek by terrified yeek

Huh? What's the point? They were brown because they were ****ing in their pants? I don't see why the color was a problem...

- dark elven druid by drúadan druid

Again this makes no sense. And even breaks the new theme, if it's to replace elves with dwarves. Just need to find a coherent theme for all dark elves and stick to it.

- giant grey scorpion by giant black scorpion



- water troll by hill troll

Again I don't get it. Must have missed some discussion somewhere because some of the changes don't seem to me really needed.

- Medusa, the Gorgon by (non-unique) gorgon
- The Lernaean Hydra by (non-unique) 9-headed hydra

Nobody could come up with a replacement for these? They're out of theme, but it's sad to lose them.

- ethereal hound by hound of Tindalos

Those are still breathing nether? Cos the ToME variant breathes time...

- Great Wyrm of Chaos by great wyrm of annihilation
- Great Wyrm of Law by sky dragon

Why? The Balance one is untouched, and chaos/law drakes still exist. I don't feel like this is really needed... If you really want a sky dragon, add the Sky Drake from ToME.

Overall it's still not as bad as I think it would be.
I wonder who will rework all the tilesets to adapt the new changes now...
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Old February 20, 2019, 12:59   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
Ok so it seems the work on monsters come to an end. Time to make a review and give my feelings!
I'll answer as best I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- hummerhorn
- neekerbreeker

Wat?? They were not annoying enough at their depth now they're buffed??
I agreed - they're deeper, but unchanged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- nruling

Sorry, but this is more a snoozing than a name which nobody will ever understand unless lerning the description by heart. I already struggle to remember Hezrou and company, would be better to find a name that's immediately recognizable (hint: I'd also rename the high demons, they're all D&D based and I don't see a meaning in Angband -- could steal the names from Sil no?)
This is from O, where it's incredibly memorable because it's like the most annoying thing possible. It could have a different name, but for the most part when I've taken things from variants I've tried to keep the same names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- erinyes

Don't get it. Why only this one? Like said above, would be better to rename all the D&D demons using Sil names (Rauko), feels more thematic.
I thought all the early demons were a bit samey, so picked this one to ... well, replace, really. Erinyes were the furies in Greek mythology, so I made a new demon called fury and put it much deeper.

This is not the only monster in the removed list that could have been in the replaced list - it was a bit arbitrary where I drew the line for that post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- aranea, elder aranea

Don't get it either. Those are perfectly fine, and you added spider of Gorgoroth instead. Clearly it should have been a pure replacement: aranea -> spider of Gorgoroth (the bats with same name come in groups so it should fit the group mob better), elder aranea -> elder spider (well there's that new "ancient spider" too)
Again, kind of a replacement. These were kind of copied from Sil and kind of from FA and definitely based on Tolkien lore (I'm going to start quoting, and not for the last time...): "...other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed ... her offspring abode there"

So ancient spiders are her mates, and spiders of Gorgoroth her offspring (you may notice they're very like Shelob).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- dark elf to eastern dwarf
- dark elven mage to blacklock mage
- dark elven warrior to stonefoot warrior
- dark elven priest to ironfist priest
- dark elven lord to dark dwarven lord
- dark elven sorcerer to stiffbeard sorcerer

Sorry, but that's clearly the change I like the least. The "dark elf" based monsters are a whole and would be replaced by some obscure stuff only a minority of people would understand about. Are those dwarven races? I don't get it... Why not simply use elven names instead? Would have been way easier to remember... Avari, Teleri, Noldor, Sindar...
My problem with dark elves is that the Silmarillion dark elves existed, but were peaceful and lived like other elves, rather than being evil underground dwellers like is built into the DNA of D&D dark elves.

Yes, those are dwarven races - see this page for some details. Tolkien also wrote elsewhere that some of the eastern kindreds of the dwarves would have come under Morgoth's influence. And I really like the names

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- ice troll to snow troll

What was wrong with "ice"?
Quoting again, from the story of Helm Hammerhand:"He would go out by himself, clad in white, and stalk like a snow-troll into the camps of his enemies..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- The Cat Lord to Tevildo, Prince of Cats

Aha! See you can steal stuff from Sil...
Well from O actually

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
"20 monsters replaced"

So what's the difference between "renamed" and "replaced"? Just the depth differs?
Renamed usually means they're (pretty much) unchanged, whereas replace means substantially changed, but like with rename vs remove/new it's a bit blurry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- brown yeek by terrified yeek

Huh? What's the point? They were brown because they were ****ing in their pants? I don't see why the color was a problem...
Color wasn't a problem, but this name is more descriptive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- dark elven druid by drúadan druid

Again this makes no sense. And even breaks the new theme, if it's to replace elves with dwarves. Just need to find a coherent theme for all dark elves and stick to it.
The druedain (the wild men of the woods from LoTR) seemed like better druids than dwarves would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- giant grey scorpion by giant black scorpion

From O, including the name. Buffed and shallower...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- water troll by hill troll

Again I don't get it. Must have missed some discussion somewhere because some of the changes don't seem to me really needed.
Hill trolls are the trolls from the final battle before the black gate in LoTR; Pippin stabs one and then it falls and crushes him and he barely survives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- Medusa, the Gorgon by (non-unique) gorgon
- The Lernaean Hydra by (non-unique) 9-headed hydra

Nobody could come up with a replacement for these? They're out of theme, but it's sad to lose them.
I couldn't think of anything better for Medusa, and hydras I have reworked so that each one is like the previous one but with an extra head and blow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- ethereal hound by hound of Tindalos

Those are still breathing nether? Cos the ToME variant breathes time...
Yes, yes, and disenchantment

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- Great Wyrm of Chaos by great wyrm of annihilation
- Great Wyrm of Law by sky dragon

Why? The Balance one is untouched, and chaos/law drakes still exist. I don't feel like this is really needed... If you really want a sky dragon, add the Sky Drake from ToME.
Sky dragons are like ToME's sky drakes, but buffed a bit

I was happy enough leaving the chaos and law drakes, but thought the wyrms were a little lame. I could remove/redo all the law/chaos/balance dragons, but I was actually trying not to do meaningless changes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
Overall it's still not as bad as I think it would be.
Well, that's something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
I wonder who will rework all the tilesets to adapt the new changes now...
*sigh*
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Old February 20, 2019, 15:31   #219
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The basic dragon types all have baby, young, mature, ancient, and great-wyrm variants. The more exotic ones have drake and great-wyrm variants. Except now there's a couple of dragon types that only have drake or that only have great-wyrm. I don't think it's vital to hew to the previously-established pattern -- I'll admit I never questioned why the Sky Drake in ToME was a 'D' and didn't have a lesser 'd' version. But I also don't see why we'd remove perfectly functional dragon types. Great Wyrms of Law have probably one of the nastier sets of breath options in the game (sound/shards), and Great Wyrms of Chaos had some neat mental imagery to them. And I don't feel like the game has too many dragons in it currently.

Also, personal opinion: it should be Sky Wyrm, not Sky Dragon, especially if it's at a similar tier as our existing great wyrms.

As an aside, something I think would be worth looking into is the remaining "<adjective> <color> <animal>" monsters, like Large Brown Snake, Giant White Tick, etc. They're probably the dullest monsters we have in terms of characteristics and theme, and they're all over the early game, which will color newbies' perceptions of what the game is like.
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Old February 20, 2019, 16:17   #220
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Thx for the answers

"ToME's sky drakes, but buffed a bit"

HAHAHAHAHAHA

You know that in ToME a Sky Drake is like a Tarrasque that can summon more Tarrasques. I wonder how it could be "buffed a bit"... ROFL
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