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Old October 21, 2016, 22:09   #1
Grotug
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Just some ideas

So I really like Angband. And just wanted to float some ideas for improvements/variations.

1. Would there be any interest in an Angband version where the levels stay? So each staircase you go down, takes you to a different part of the dungeon; and when you go up the staircase it takes you to where you went down; no endless number of random generated dungeons. The dungeons would still be randomly generated each game, but only 100 (or I guess there are dungeons below 100?) So each dungeon level stays the same the entire game. I guess drawbacks of this would be you'd have limited space to disperse all the artifacts over all the levels, and it'd probably mean that there wouldn't be enough space to have all the artifacts to appear in one game. Although I suppose there is no limit to how many items enemy's can drop.

2. More artifacts? A big appeal of the game is discovering artifacts I haven't seen before. As I have played this game quite a bit, it's very rare I find an artifact I haven't already gotten before. I know there are plenty of artifacts I haven't gotten at DL70 and deeper, but since I spend most of my time between DL 1 and 50 it'd be fun if there were more artifacts to discover. How often do artifacts get added to the game? What's the process of doing so? I get the impression all the artifacts were programmed in decades ago. Is this true? I think it would be fun to come up with some new artifacts, though I am not very versed in the greater Middle-earth or Silmarillion lore.

3. Angband is a pretty simple game. You have one quest; destroy Morgoth. But what if there were lots of sidequests you could be presented with to complete on your way to defeating Morgoth? Whenever you complete a quest, you could be presented with a new quest. Like, first you stumble upon some friendly character being held prisoner by orcs in a dungeon somewhere around 800-1200', and he thanks you for saving him and tells you that his uncle, a benevolent and powerful wizard is being held prisoner somewhere around 2200'. He beseeches you to rescue him and agrees to help you on the quest in token of his appreciation for being rescued. and if you rescue the wizard (it might be Gandalf the Grey or Radagast the Brown) he will give you some artifact or some kind of power (like how the elders of the villages in Zelda II: The Adventures of Link would). Maybe the wizard could also fight alongside you for a time before some other more pressing matters would require him to leave. Hell, if you fight a Balrog alongside him, and if he should die by the Balrog, later on you could encounter him again as Gandalf the White. Maybe there could be other characters whose help you could enlist along the way as well (maybe Tom Bombadil?).

There could be a whole slew of benevolent creatures who could help you if you should be so fortunate to stumble upon them. Might make it a little more interesting instead of only finding artifacts and could solve the current silly problem of fighting benevolent LOTR characters like Radagast The Brown.
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Old October 21, 2016, 22:26   #2
bio_hazard
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1) This is one of the defining features of Angband. Some variants may offer options for persistent levels but I don't think it is necessarily very common.

2) You can select Randarts in the birth options and you will get a totally fresh set of randomly generated artifacts (but the same total number I believe). There's another birth option to keep those artifacts, or to start with a new set the next time you start a new character.

3) Many variants already exist that have side quests. For example ToME 2.3 has
-Princess/Fumblefingers quests in the main dungeons
-God quests if you are playing with a religion
-Fates (sort of like quests)
-Home quests to secure a home in each town
-Beastmaster Quests
-Town NPC quests
-Bosses in most dungeons
-Main story quests
-(I'm probably forgetting a bunch).

e: check out the variant tab above and the variant subforum below. FAAngband, NPPAngband, Poschengband, ToME 2.3 (very diff from the ToME 4, which is also a good game...) are some good ones.

Last edited by bio_hazard; October 21, 2016 at 22:34.
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Old October 21, 2016, 22:44   #3
Mudd
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I don't think persistent levles would work with vanilla angband, but I could see it in a variant.

It would probably put an end to the current rapid dive paradigm/strategem.
Folks would be much more inclined to finish levels if they might be leaving something behind!
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Old October 22, 2016, 00:13   #4
Therem Harth
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1) Persistent levels would be cool as an option IMO. I think they might improve the game from my standpoint, but probably not for everyone.

In terms of code though, this might be had to implement in a way that wasn't subtly broken and/or cheesy. Also, it opens a bunch of questions about monster behavior and balance.

e.g. If a powerful monster is chasing you, and you go down a flight of stairs, does it follow you down? If not, how long does it hang around waiting for you to come back up? Does its behavior depend on its type? Its level or other traits? Your character's traits?

... This sounds like a lot of work actually. Maybe it would be better as the main feature of a variant, if someone wanted to give it serious treatment.

2) Sure, though there will doubtless be complaints about balance. Personally though, I'm in favor of standarts in addition to unlimited randarts a la ToME2. Failing that, I'd settle for much greater variation in ego item types and their properties. These things might hurt balance, but IMO they add a fun dose of randomness.

(Unlimited randarts will probably never appear in V. More diverse ego items though... Well, one can hope.)

3) Side quests would be really cool in a V-style single dungeon variant.

Monster alignments... Hmm. I think random friendly monsters were one of the more annoying things about ToME, and I dismiss them as soon as they appear when playing that variant.
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Old October 22, 2016, 00:29   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therem Harth View Post
1) Persistent levels would be cool as an option IMO. I think they might improve the game from my standpoint, but probably not for everyone.

In terms of code though, this might be had to implement in a way that wasn't subtly broken and/or cheesy. Also, it opens a bunch of questions about monster behavior and balance.

e.g. If a powerful monster is chasing you, and you go down a flight of stairs, does it follow you down? If not, how long does it hang around waiting for you to come back up? Does its behavior depend on its type? Its level or other traits? Your character's traits?

... This sounds like a lot of work actually. Maybe it would be better as the main feature of a variant, if someone wanted to give it serious treatment.
Actually, a lot of the requisite work has been done already in 4.0. Levels can be saved, and are stored in the save file, with monsters optional. This is how the town now works - it's saved without monsters and then restored when the player returns.

Making levels persistent now would simply be a matter of saving every level on leaving, and then checking on arriving at a new level for if there was a saved version.
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Old October 22, 2016, 01:01   #6
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randarts would have a mode where *some* artis are randomized - mostly the less important ones, such as Til-i-Arc - while the main ones (Phial, Arkenstone, Ringil, etc) stay the same. Looks to ma as if randarts games either wind up giving you underpowered gear, or there are 2-3 randarts which absolutely dominate the game, like a heavy weapon with +2 attacks, or a dragon armor with resists and +speed ... or a weapon which !*heals* ... a cloak that activates for Mban .. you know.
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Old October 22, 2016, 01:19   #7
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I guess I feel that for an essentially random game like Angband, set quests are not that great. But there’s a few formats that I haven’t seen used:

Encounter NPC, and…
- They could be held captive in a room populated with an OoD monster group. You free them and they do something useful for you.
- They could be poisoned, hurt, whatever. You have an item that can help them (WoR to get them to the town, poison/healing potion, food) and they trade you something in return (OoD consumables, enchantment, restore stats, money)
- They have a map to an pre-written area of the dungeon with an objective to retrieve an item/kill all the monsters. They reappear when you’re done to offer reward
- They have lost something on the level below. Find it and return it to them in the town and get a discount in a particular store
- They were trying to kill Morgoth but have given up. However, they left a stash of X and can tell you were to find it (mushrooms, or ammo, or 2 stat potions)

You could also go for the more traditional and non-NPC oriented setups where it’s a case of 'kill x monsters of this kind to get a reward in the town'. Could be inscribed in the stairs on the way down instead of having a place to get quests in the town like most variants.

Fleshing those things out a bit:

- an enchantress has run out of food. will you give her some? if so she will enchant an item (0% fail)

- a man is looking for his sword. he lost it somewhere on the level when he was chased away. if you bring it back to him in the town, he can get you a 20% discount in the alchemists

- you walk into a room with a person tied to the far wall. they should ‘help!’ when they’re in LoS and if you cut the ropes they give you some OoD consumables

- you meet another would-be morgoth-killer who has given up on the quest - can you give them a WoR scroll to get back to the surface?

I guess there is quite a lot of scope to vary what these situations would be if they're based on quest templates instead of totally pre-written.
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Old October 22, 2016, 01:53   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
So I really like Angband. And just wanted to float some ideas for improvements/variations.

1. Would there be any interest in an Angband version where the levels stay?
Persistent levels are a compromise between regular and ironman. Like many compromises, they are worse than the either of the two options.

Just play ironman. Eventually, you'll be glad you did.
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Old October 22, 2016, 09:35   #9
Zireael
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I'd like persistent levels as an option.

EDIT: Post no. 200, yaay!
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Old October 22, 2016, 10:10   #10
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Re: Persistent Levels: The correct way to do this is like Hengband/Entroband/PosChengband do it. It trivially prevents stairscumming in an instantly understandable way (which a 'hard clock' does not).

(I'm assuming that preventing stairscumming is something that one wants to do. I'm one of those players who has a terrible (almost irresitable) tendency to abuse mechanics even when they make the game less fun.)
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