Variant with diverse character combos and great item system?

[getter77]

Steamband is actually, in theory, due an update at some point in the future as per a thread by the main person on it in here awhile back---fingers crossed.

Hmm, if ToME 2 really jumped out to you---I'd say look into Furyband as there was some odd interplay afoot: http://www.furytech.net/furyband/furyband.php Zop's mod there might bolster it nicely, but either way there's almost certainly a fair bit going on there on the whole.

[Magnate]

We are not worthy!!

(Since people appear not to have made the connection: Stabwound is to Crawl what Lev/Cliff were to Angband.)

Welcome, Stabwound. I second the recommendations of Steam and Sil, in which different builds play very differently. I'd also recommend Oangband (which is a leaner precursor of FA) and Sangband (which has the closest to Crawl's skill system, so the difference between builds is up to you).

[Pete Mack]

Stabwound, I agree with Magnate: if you are a God of Crawl, Sil, Steam, and O/FA/S are the choices for you. Angband proper is fundamentally too easy unless you are looking to make the game more interesting by diving, etc. That's actually my preference: dive fast and see if I survive. But Cliff Stamp was the God of Diving, True Acolyte of the RNG. (We are not worthy...)

[getter77]

Ah yeah, definitely also adding Sangband and/or Ironband to my own recs---it would be a great day to see Sang resume lively development, but the prospect of somebody actually beating it and perhaps chronicling it somehow via video or otherwise would be a sight to behold.

[half]

Stabwound, I'm one of the developers of Sil and would also recommend it. It is very different to Angband, and has a design philosophy that is very similar to that of Crawl. It doesn't have any classes, but uses a skill system and experts in the different skills are very distinct in their play styles.

[stabwound]

Yeah, I really like the barebones design philosophy of Sil. I may be off here, but it seems like it's pretty anti-grinding, and that's one of the things I really like about Nethack and Crawl. In these games, you have persistent, limited levels, and you're forced to make due with what you get.

Sadly, what turns me off about Angband in general is how its designed for you to have to grind a ton for specific resistances, items, etc. I can see the appeal for some people, but its on the completely opposite spectrum of something like Crawl.

I'll definitely give some of these suggestions a shot. I do get some fun out of PosChengband, but I also get the impression that it's another grind-heavy game. I love the varied loot system and character combos, though.

[Derakon]

Originally Posted by stabwound

Sadly, what turns me off about Angband in general is how its designed for you to have to grind a ton for specific resistances, items, etc. I can see the appeal for some people, but its on the completely opposite spectrum of something like Crawl.

I think Angband gets a lot of flak for allowing grinding, but it's also not necessary to anywhere near the extent that many people think it is. I mean, to beat Sauron and Morgoth, you need:

* Enough speed (+20 and a temporary source is fine)
* Enough damage (~350/round on a melee weapon, less on spells/archery since they're more reliable/safer)
* Enough hitpoints (600 minimum)
* Some healing items and a few panic buttons (scrolls of Destruction/Mass Genocide)

These requirements are not, usually, hard to meet. There's lots of other things that will make winning easier, sometimes significantly so. And there's some abilities that are more or less required to make it to Sauron and Morgoth (basic 4 resists, free action, see invisible). But the vast majority of abilities, including every single high resistance/status protection with the possible exception of poison (and Free Action, of course) are not actually necessary. And I'm not talking "well, the game has been beaten by ego-less characters, so none of this stuff is necessary", I mean "I routinely beat the game with major gaps in the character sheet". And I don't consider myself to be some godly player either; decent, but nothing amazing.

[ekolis]

And then there are players like me who suck so bad they DIE while grinding...

[half]

Originally Posted by stabwound

Yeah, I really like the barebones design philosophy of Sil. I may be off here, but it seems like it's pretty anti-grinding, and that's one of the things I really like about Nethack and Crawl.

Yes, that was part of the design of Sil. Scatha and I feel quite strongly that a game should be designed so that optimal play is fun play. Having a superior but boring option goes against this principle, and the worst is having a continuum of strategies between these as then you can't simply delineate the degenerate play and decide not to do it. Most people around here don't mind having degenerate gameplay options though, and some see it as a positive advantage to be able to choose and adjust the difficulty level during the game. I can see some sense in this, but not sufficient to tempt me to design (or play) games like that.

So I suppose Sil is an interesting example of a non-persistent dungeon game (i.e. a moria-like) with the arbitrarily slow descent removed, making it much more like a persistent dungeon game in some respects. I think the really interesting thing about it are the abilities. Some are just bonuses to rolls, but many change the basic tactical gameplay in ways that I hope many other roguelikes take up (such as Flanking, Charge, and Sprinting).

[Pete Mack]

Half, fortunately there are multiple ways to define optimal in angband.
Minimal likelihood of dying certainly means grinding.
But minimal player turns to win means something else.
Cliff Stamp showed NPP (small levels) can be one in as few as 20,000 player turns (< 100K game turns, at speed.)

So there's room for fun ~ optimal in angband, too.