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Old August 11, 2011, 18:43   #21
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Your death was avoidable, by detecting more often and running less. The fact that you took the shortcut of running was the problem. You relied on ESP for monster knowledge and were burned because of it. Detect monsters goes beyond MAX_SIGHT. You *could* have known it was there. You didn't detect, you ran too far, you died. Running is dangerous. If you want to propose a fix to this problem its with running, not with MAX_SIGHT.
Bullshit.

You mean that we have disturbance options for nothing, because nobody is supposed to be running?

I DID detect, I ran, I died.

EVERYONE uses running (if they know how to). And no, I couldn't know where it was unless I wasn't running and detecting pretty much every other second. To me that counts as unavoidable death, because that is caused by game mechanics, not by my mistake.

This MAX_SIGHT change was a "correction" to difference between max target range and Umbar (a single item) having multiplier that allowed it to have range beyond automatic targeting. Note that it was automatic targeting using '*', manually you could still target things beyond that. There was a reason why that was two grids shorter than your LoS range, not only to prevent unavoidable deaths, but also to allow few interesting tactical maneuvers.

Now we have unavoidable death and less interesting game. With Umbar that doesn't have excess multiplier anymore. There is absolutely no reason for that to still exist in the game. It doesn't make game any harder, it just makes it more dependent on luck. You could as well add in the game a random chance to get killed every turn. It doesn't make game harder, just annoying to play at all.
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Old August 11, 2011, 19:36   #22
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Angband has always been a "purists" game- to be honest it is pretty amazing that it has been developed for so long and stayed so true to the 'Step 1: by lantern, Step 2: Kill Morgroth' idea...

Haven't we had a bunch of threads "Making the game harder, take N"?... Seems like a lot of those ideas would help in small ways to make the game more difficult. I don't personally find the game that easy but I can see a few ways to up the difficulty while hopefully making the game more interesting and/or encouraging a broader range of play styles.

1) Class/Race-specific constraints (not a complete list, but you get the idea).

*Smaller races (hobbits, dwarves, gnomes) can have higher stealth and saving throws, but be penalized or prevented from using big equipment (long bows, large shields, the big two-handed weapons).

*Paladins should have a chance to aggravate, and/or get penalties when wearing stealth gear.

*Priests and mages should be prevented/be bad at bows.

2) Changes to stealth- I like many of the suggestions in a recent thread where stealth would replace the "searching" mode. Stealth would increase with character level, and stealth mode would slow you somewhat. Heavy equipment would harm your stealth.

3) Changes to free action and paralysis (again, partially based on a recent thread). Make paralysis attacks cause slowing that can stack, and free action resists, decrease, but not completely prevent these attacks). Let speed/heroism/berserk give additional temporary resist. At high enough level or with certain equipment can be immune, but not at 1000'.

4) changes to encumbrance
* Generally decrease weight allowance
* Increase to-hit/Dam, spell, stealth malus due to equip weight. Allow thresholds to change somewhat with char level as well as strength/dex or other relevant stats

5) Monster/Dungeon behavior & layout
* Force some kind of guard monster near "good" items.
* Tunneling aggrevates
*chance of undetectable "alarm" traps that wake all monsters on level
* Force chance of guarded stairs
* More "interesting" layouts
* Smarter summons/tactics to make ASC more challenging
* At higher levels give lower-level monsters chance of better attacks (e.g. branded weapons, better spells on casters)

6) Escapes
- not sure how to do this, but try to emphasize Polymorph as an alternative to TO, at least in early game.
- When teleporting, wakes monsters w/in line of sight
- Earthquake/Destruction chance to shatter potions in inventory, also increases spawn rate on level?

7) probably variant territory, but "prison" levels where monsters guard one NPC, if you save the NPC, level map is revealed and a hidden room is created or revealed.
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Old August 11, 2011, 21:13   #23
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I see a looot of changes being proposed by different people in this post and I am not sure that any of them are required.

Where did this "hey, I like Angband and I have a bit of spare time, I'll try to revamp some of V's main mechanics" attitude spring from?

In my view the main priorities should be:
- bugfixes
- interface and accessibility work
- drip-feeding new content (monsters, objects, vaults etc) to keep people interested
- occasionally rejigging a mechanic, where there is general agreement that the status quo is unsatisfactory
- at all times maintaining balance.

And in the short term I really can't see how anyone can take a view that the game is or is not balanced, until (a) people have spent some time playing 3.3.0, (b) people have spent some time playing 3.4.0, and (c) Magnate's object simulator is operational.

A.

(No offence meant to anyone)
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Old August 11, 2011, 21:54   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Where did this "hey, I like Angband and I have a bit of spare time, I'll try to revamp some of V's main mechanics" attitude spring from?
Personally, I blame Generation Y. That's the thing to do now, right?
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Old August 11, 2011, 22:32   #25
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Where did this "hey, I like Angband and I have a bit of spare time, I'll try to revamp some of V's main mechanics" attitude spring from?
You are asking that question a bit late. Many many things have been already altered, and not always in a good direction. I would like to go back a few steps to see how things were done in early days without losing the good stuff we have made.

I tend to agree with Eddie that last balanced version was 3.0.9 (actually I find 2.8.3 even more balanced), but since so many things were changed since then stripping all that out and going back there is no longer an option. Note that I don't think that all of that were bad, but the "big picture" apparently has been lost during current teamwork, each team member doing some tiny "this is cool" -thing not noticing how it affects everything else. In the process game has been changed easier, and also more boring (not necessary in related ways).

Reason why I made this thread was that I have got an feeling that the ways devteam is trying to make things harder is a wrong one. They are removing all the tactical advantages player has over monsters, and developing a great char practical impossibility. Both things are bad. Game should be harder, but only to certain point, you should be able to get magnificent character, you should get a lucky break every now and then, you should be able to kill anything and everything with ease using top items, you should be able to mitigate summons using dungeon layout and so on.

Is it wrong that player is able to get easy loot using *destruction* to CGV if that vault appears maybe once in 20 games where you get to dlvl 4000'+? Is it wrong to be able to teleport away more than one monster at the time? Is it wrong to be able to melee an Greater Titan without extreme gear? Is it wrong to be able to wipe out white dragon pit with ease wielding Eonwe? If I can't get the loot, I avoid that vault. If I can't survive without teleporting away multiple monsters, I avoid that situation. If I can't melee a titan I avoid it. Can't handle dragon pit? Avoid.

It makes the game a game of avoidance. Too many things avoided because reward is no longer there does not make game harder, it makes it just more boring.
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Old August 11, 2011, 22:51   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
I see a looot of changes being proposed by different people in this post and I am not sure that any of them are required.

Where did this "hey, I like Angband and I have a bit of spare time, I'll try to revamp some of V's main mechanics" attitude spring from?

In my view the main priorities should be:
- bugfixes
- interface and accessibility work
- drip-feeding new content (monsters, objects, vaults etc) to keep people interested
- occasionally rejigging a mechanic, where there is general agreement that the status quo is unsatisfactory
- at all times maintaining balance.
I would say that the majority of code that I actually write addresses bugfixes and other under the hood things. The majority of stuff that I *talk* about on this forum are changes to gameplay. I think that's true for almost every other code contributor here as well.
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Old August 11, 2011, 23:13   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
I see a looot of changes being proposed by different people in this post and I am not sure that any of them are required.

Where did this "hey, I like Angband and I have a bit of spare time, I'll try to revamp some of V's main mechanics" attitude spring from?

In my view the main priorities should be:
- bugfixes
- interface and accessibility work
- drip-feeding new content (monsters, objects, vaults etc) to keep people interested
- occasionally rejigging a mechanic, where there is general agreement that the status quo is unsatisfactory
- at all times maintaining balance.

And in the short term I really can't see how anyone can take a view that the game is or is not balanced, until (a) people have spent some time playing 3.3.0, (b) people have spent some time playing 3.4.0, and (c) Magnate's object simulator is operational.

A.

(No offence meant to anyone)
Hey don't stifle it. Just look at them as suggestions for discussion rather than demands.

I find all the discussions about the mechanics fascinating; both in terms of Angband itself, and in terms of "what is fun?" game design in general.

Although I first played angband back in the late 90's ish. I've never been a very good player, and never really got that close to winning. I've never been a particularly consistent player either, I dip in and out. Although I have played enough versions to notice differences, at least in the first half of the game.

I do still hope that any questions/comments/suggestions I have on Angband are listened to though. I know there's a backlash at the moment about the game becoming easier, but I think the worst thing at the moment would be if it became inaccessible for new players.

Saying that, it's often said that the early game is the hardest, shouldn't one of the main aims to be to reverse that? I guess that the permadeath thing makes it a bit complicated - it's worth letting people know that they can be fucked over without x before they've invested too much time in a character; suddenly dying with no clue after 30mins is less of a kick in the teeth than the same thing happening 10hrs later.

Personally I think that needing FA, and RPoison, could be pushed back into the dungeon if it was somehow warned that "if you don't get this resistant then you are going to be fucked soon". At the moment if you attempt to play without spoilers then you've got a good chance of wandering down, having fun and then eaten to death by a carrion crawler or than yellow demon thing.

With permadeath comes great responsibility. Yes new players are going to die and start again lots of times before they win, but everytime it happens it should have been avoidable from the information within the game. This isn't the same as saying a new player should win on their first attempt, but difficulty shouldn't be hidden behind things they couldn't know.

The current approach can't be much fun for experienced players either, once you know what you can and can't kill at any point, then you just don't bother. I read stuff about diving early to make things a bit more exciting, but surely that just temporarily changes the number of things you can/can't kill, whilst increasing the number of things you can kill pretty quickly.

Sorry this has turned into a bit of a longer essay of ideas, I'll leave it there, just realised I've been typing for ages

I'm not saying that these are definite truths or anything, just how I see the game at the moment. As I said, more discussion points instead of demands.
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Old August 12, 2011, 00:01   #28
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Originally Posted by bio_hazard View Post
Angband has always been a "purists" game- to be honest it is pretty amazing that it has been developed for so long and stayed so true to the 'Step 1: by lantern, Step 2: Kill Morgroth' idea...
But it hasn't, because lanterns were removed from the General Store. That's a whole 50% of the old way gone right there.
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Old August 12, 2011, 00:05   #29
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I would say that the majority of code that I actually write addresses bugfixes and other under the hood things.
Yes I think you do great stuff

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Old August 12, 2011, 00:09   #30
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Reason why I made this thread was that I have got an feeling that the ways devteam is trying to make things harder is a wrong one. They are removing all the tactical advantages player has over monsters, and developing a great char practical impossibility.
I agree those things would be bad to do, but are they what the Devteam are actually doing?

I see changes like rejigging object frequencies, nerfing branded ammo, nerfing combat bonuses on off-weapon artifacts, nerfing elemental rings, removing percentile healing, fixing too-many-shoes, making stat loss harder to cure... these don't seem to diminish tactical play.

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