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Old September 20, 2012, 23:18   #11
fizzix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
A single turn spent in LOS of time hounds is probably not fatal. A single turn spent in LOS of plasma or force hounds can easily be so -- let alone gravity hounds. Of course, a single plasma or force hound in isolation is not a big threat, while a single time hound can still be very aggravating.
Time hounds (level 51) move at +20 speed and breathe for 110 damage.
Plasma hounds (level 51) move at +10 speed and breathe for 55 damage.
Impact hounds (level 35) move at normal speed and breathe for 32 damage.
Gravity hounds (level 35) move at normal speed and breathes for 64 damage.

Time hounds are by far the most dangerous of the 4 just from sheer damage alone. Gravity hounds come in a close second partly because they can gravity-warp you into a room where their friends can breathe on you.

edit: all breathe 1 time in 5
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Old September 21, 2012, 01:13   #12
Derakon
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Plasma and impact will stun you, which prevents 0% failure rates on spells. A mage or priest who is used to relying on his spellbook then has to chug healing potions to clear the stun (at which point the hounds may breathe anyway), or try casting spells and risk failure.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I don't find time hounds to be an unmanageable problem. Are they dangerous? Heck yes. But the dungeon needs to be dangerous, and I don't think they're disproportionately dangerous.

Gravity also slows you, note. It's not just the teleportation effect that gets you -- it's everything in the area suddenly getting twice as many turns.
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Old September 21, 2012, 02:01   #13
fizzix
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I've never managed a pack of time hounds in any way other than destruct/leave/banish. I have managed other hounds, although I need to be able to one shot gravity hounds to attempt.

The question is what do they add to the game? If the answer is, "they make teleportation risky" I can think of better ways to do that. I guess the bottom line for me is that it's not a fun mechanic at all in my games. I've never enjoyed it, and I don't think hounds were ever meant to represent the ultimate danger in the game.
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Old September 21, 2012, 02:20   #14
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Well, how about these as a replacement?
Code:
N:624:Hound of Tindalos
T:zephyr hound
C:t
I:130:10d69:30:40:0
W:77:3:0:7000
B:BITE:HURT:1d18
B:BITE:HURT:1d18
B:CLAW:HURT:2d6
F:FORCE_SLEEP |
F:INVISIBLE | PASS_WALL
S:1_IN_5 | POW_0 |
S:BRTH_NETHR | BRTH_DISEN | BRTH_TIME
D:"They are lean and athirst!"
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Old September 21, 2012, 03:12   #15
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Honestly, they're less dangerous than time hounds. They are the same speed and have 2 weaker breaths both of which can be at least partially resisted. They're also 26 levels deeper. (assuming we're porting directly). Hit points are roughly the same too, Time Hounds average at 330, these guys average at around 345 or so. Pass Wall isn't terrible either because if you're clever you can convince one at a time to come after you. It's very tedious but at least possible.
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Old September 21, 2012, 03:50   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I've never managed a pack of time hounds in any way other than destruct/leave/banish. I have managed other hounds, although I need to be able to one shot gravity hounds to attempt.

The question is what do they add to the game? If the answer is, "they make teleportation risky" I can think of better ways to do that. I guess the bottom line for me is that it's not a fun mechanic at all in my games. I've never enjoyed it, and I don't think hounds were ever meant to represent the ultimate danger in the game.
I have had hT Warriors taking out of time hounds, luring them into antisummoning corridor and onehitting.

But the pack of plasma hound took out my hT Mage as I teleported away from situation where there were demons and liches closing in, and black reaver making holes in walls. I got prompltly knocked out and killed, without any chance.
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Old September 21, 2012, 04:42   #17
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Originally Posted by donalde View Post
I have had hT Warriors taking out of time hounds, luring them into antisummoning corridor and onehitting.

But the pack of plasma hound took out my hT Mage as I teleported away from situation where there were demons and liches closing in, and black reaver making holes in walls. I got prompltly knocked out and killed, without any chance.
I assure you if those plasma hounds were replaced with time hounds you would have also been dead without a chance. Time hounds breathe 50% more frequently for twice as much damage. If you took enough plasma breaths to stun you to knockout, you would've taken enough time breaths to die.

You also can no longer lure hounds into ASCs because they have the pack AI. You must have been referring to an older version.
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Old September 21, 2012, 05:31   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
The question is what do they add to the game? If the answer is, "they make teleportation risky" I can think of better ways to do that. I guess the bottom line for me is that it's not a fun mechanic at all in my games. I've never enjoyed it, and I don't think hounds were ever meant to represent the ultimate danger in the game.
They do more than make teleportation risk: they make navigating the dungeon harder. They represent a mobile no-fly zone, and you have to take them into account all the time so they don't blindside you. On the flipside, if you can manage to destroy them (entirely possible; they only have 330HP), then you'll have rewarded yourself with easier access to whatever they were in the way of. They make for interesting risk/reward tradeoffs, and they wouldn't be able to do that if they were less threatening.
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Old September 21, 2012, 06:21   #19
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I just took out a pack of Plasma Hounds (in 3.3.2). Bump up to +30 Speed with a Staff. Pop into LoS with a couple and shoot with arrows. If stunned, retreat around a corner and wait until not stunned. Annoying but doable with a Half-Troll Warrior with ESP and over 1000 HP. Next time I won't use arrows that get burned up while lying on the ground.

The fact that they choose not to enter LoS actually makes Hounds (including Time) fairly easy to dispose of if you're using a spellcaster. Simply pick your favorite ball-type spell and cast it in a square adjacent to the Hounds. They'll just sit there while you destroy them. I had no problems with my Dwarf Priest or my Gnome Mage. Of course, Teleporting into a pack of them is a different matter...
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Old September 21, 2012, 07:36   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I've never managed a pack of time hounds in any way other than destruct/leave/banish. I have managed other hounds, although I need to be able to one shot gravity hounds to attempt.
Have you tried with high level char? They are quite manageable once you have enough speed to match them. It's not the breath which makes them so dangerous, it is the fact that they move so d*mn fast. Something like Chaos hound breathes higher damage (on average even with resist) and are a lot tougher to kill, but move slower so you can easily avoid being in LoS of more than one at the time.

Time hounds are weak enough for one-turn kill for high level char, so they pose no significant danger once you are in high enough level. If you feel that they are too dangerous, move them deeper. Plasma and gravity hounds stay at one-turn death threat at far fewer breaths (once you have enough HP) as long as you don't have stunning resist. That makes them deadly thru nearly entire game. Impact less so, because they are significantly weaker than those two.

Time hounds IMO are OK, but time vortices are just annoying. Same with unmagic. If I see storm of unmagic in detection, don't have speed to match and don't have disenchant resist it is time to leave level.
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