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Old November 25, 2021, 04:14   #1
Grotug
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Spell distribution point system?

I like the idea of being able to allot points to different spells at the beginning of the game in much the same fashion as points are allotted for stats.

So if you're playing a ranger you'll have a certain number of spells to choose from but you won't have enough points to have access to all spells.

I've allotted the points based on how powerful and prioritized I feel a spell is.

The extra spells would be those spells that used to be available to most classes such as cure light wounds, portal / teleport self and teleport other.

Maximum number of spells per book I guess would be 5. So if you wanted 6 dungeon spells you'd need two dungeon books to fit them, in which case you might try to have your total dungeon spells closer to 10.

You get 40 points to allocate:

So the spell choices for a Ranger might look something like:

Book 1:
Remove Hunger: 1 pt
Detect Life: 4 pt
Herbal Curing: 1 pt.
Resist poison: 2 pt
Stone To Mud: 6 pt
Sense Surroundings: 3 pt

Neutral, missing and other spells that Ranger doesn't have that are appropriate:
Teleport Other: 10 pt (bk2)
Teleport Level: 6 pt (bk2)
Teleport Self: 5 pt (bk2)
Portal: 3 pt (bk1)
Rune of Protection: 7 pt (bk2)
Treasure Detection: 3 pt (bk1)
Detect all monsters: 6 pt (bk2)
Rod of Detection equivalency: 8 pt (bk2)
Magic Missile: 2 pt (bk1)
Cure light wounds: 2 pt (bk1)

Book 2:
Haste Self: 6 pt
Create Arrows: 3 pt
Cover Tracks: 3 pt
Decoy: 4 pt
Brand Ammunition: 5 pt
+4 stealth: 4 pt

What I would choose:

Cure Light Wounds.....2
Stone to Mud.............6
Sense Surroundings....4
+4 stealth.................4
Teleport Self..............5 (or Portal-3 and rPois -2)
Brand Ammunition.....5
Haste Self.................6
-Detection.................8

or..

Cure Light Wounds.....2
Stone to Mud.............6
Sense Surroundings....4
+4 stealth.................4
Haste Self.................6
-Detection.................8
Teleport Other...........10

or..

Detect Life................4
Stone To mud............6
Portal.......................3
Sense Surroundings...3
Treasure Detection.....3
Haste Self.................6
Teleport Other..........10
Brand Ammunition.....5

or..

Herbal Curing............1
Cure light wounds......2
Portal.......................3
Treasure detection.....3
Detect life.................4
Create Arrows...........3
Haste Self.................6
Sense Surroundings...3
Teleport other...........10
Brand ammunition.....5

or..

Herbal Curing.............1
Portal........................3
Treasure Detection......3
Stone To mud.............6
Sense Surroundings.....3
Haste Self...................6
-Detection...................8
Teleport Other.............10

If the max spells per book were 6 instead of 5 I'd choose these:

Cure light wounds......2
Portal.......................3
-Detection.................8
Create Arrows............3
Haste Self..................6
Sense Surroundings....3
Teleport other...........10
Brand ammunition......5

Honestly this exercise was a lot harder than I thought it would be. It's really hard to figure out which spells I would pick with these point allotments.

Different Classes might affect the point allotment. So for Mage Cure Light wounds might be higher (maybe 3 points).

For more fun and strategy: at the start of the game you could be allowed to subtract stat allotment points and add spell allotment points, but you would not be able to put spell allotment points towards starting stats.

How would you distribute these points at the start of the game if you were playing Ranger?
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Old November 25, 2021, 07:51   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
I like the idea of being able to allot points to different spells at the beginning of the game in much the same fashion as points are allotted for stats.

So if you're playing a ranger you'll have a certain number of spells to choose from but you won't have enough points to have access to all spells.

I've allotted the points based on how powerful and prioritized I feel a spell is.

The extra spells would be those spells that used to be available to most classes such as cure light wounds, portal / teleport self and teleport other.

Maximum number of spells per book I guess would be 5. So if you wanted 6 dungeon spells you'd need two dungeon books to fit them, in which case you might try to have your total dungeon spells closer to 10.

You get 40 points to allocate:
I like the concept. A lot. If you get the points all tweaked correctly, could lead to really interesting balanced choices.
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Old November 27, 2021, 18:00   #3
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I'm not a fan of the concept, for purely subjective reasons. I don't like these kinds of open-ended character building systems. The challenge they present is one of "starting over over and over again to figure out a strong character build" and I just don't like that kind of challenge. I prefer "starting over and over again to figure out good tactics with a given fixed build." It doesn't help that I think it introduces serious balancing problems.

For example, *everyone* would take Teleport Other. Renewable TO is just too powerful to give up. Not only does this make the strategic choices a bit less interesting than we'd like, but it also makes the classes less distinct. Right now, renewable TO is a powerful and (mostly, wizards get it too) unique weapon in the Rogue's arsenal. If everyone can have it, Rogues lose a lot of their unique feel.

I think this would be great in a variant, but considering just how many Roguelikes (and RPGs) there are with open-ended character systems that people can play, I'm not enthusiastic about introducing them to Angband.
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Old November 27, 2021, 19:25   #4
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I did make TO the most expensive spell, so it's not like it wouldn't be fun to allot those ten points somewhere else on some games. I also don't think one setup will emerge as a clear winner; there are pros and cons to each spell and this way you get to have spells you like and leave spells you don't use.
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Old November 27, 2021, 20:15   #5
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Please check PWMAngband 'Elementalist' class - such feature is implemented there. As PWMA is compatible in many means to Vanilla - you can port this system from PWMA to make a variant with such feature
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Old Yesterday, 00:38   #6
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Originally Posted by archolewa View Post
I'm not a fan of the concept, for purely subjective reasons. I don't like these kinds of open-ended character building systems. The challenge they present is one of "starting over over and over again to figure out a strong character build" and I just don't like that kind of challenge. I prefer "starting over and over again to figure out good tactics with a given fixed build." It doesn't help that I think it introduces serious balancing problems.

For example, *everyone* would take Teleport Other. Renewable TO is just too powerful to give up. Not only does this make the strategic choices a bit less interesting than we'd like, but it also makes the classes less distinct. Right now, renewable TO is a powerful and (mostly, wizards get it too) unique weapon in the Rogue's arsenal. If everyone can have it, Rogues lose a lot of their unique feel.

I think this would be great in a variant, but considering just how many Roguelikes (and RPGs) there are with open-ended character systems that people can play, I'm not enthusiastic about introducing them to Angband.
I pretty much always end up with a big stack of Rod of TO. Can do that with any character class...
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Old Yesterday, 01:16   #7
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I'm not against the idea, but I think it might be a bit too much of a radical change for vanilla.

Who was that guy who arrived in our group and upset everybody almost immediately, then just suddenly left like the Tiger who came to tea. He was suggesting something similar, and argued his case relatively well (in the end).

I've also thought it might be fun if individual spells were discovered on scrolls dropped around the dungeon (in a similar way to dungeon spell books).

I also think if a spell is recited a certain number of times then it should be committed to memory and even if the book is destroyed then you can still cast the spell. It seems illogical that a mage would need to keep referring back to their beginner's spell book at level 50.
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Old Yesterday, 02:11   #8
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Originally Posted by Selkie View Post
Who was that guy who arrived in our group and upset everybody almost immediately, then just suddenly left like the Tiger who came to tea.
Description ambiguous

This happens from time to time; largely I suspect it's trolling from DCSS players...
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Old Yesterday, 03:16   #9
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Description ambiguous

This happens from time to time; largely I suspect it's trolling from DCSS players...
The Tiger Who Came to Tea is a short children's story, first published by HarperCollins in 1968, written and illustrated by Judith Kerr. The book concerns a girl called Sophie, her mother, and an anthropomorphised tiger who invites himself to their afternoon tea and consumes all the food and drink they have. (wikipedia)
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Old Yesterday, 03:52   #10
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Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
The Tiger Who Came to Tea is a short children's story, first published by HarperCollins in 1968, written and illustrated by Judith Kerr. The book concerns a girl called Sophie, her mother, and an anthropomorphised tiger who invites himself to their afternoon tea and consumes all the food and drink they have. (wikipedia)
Sorry, I was unclear. The ambiguity was in which poster was being referred to
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