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Old November 3, 2016, 01:59   #271
Scraper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
But it's by no means a core part of most players' strategies.
I don't think it is a core way of playing either, but it has certainly been suggested as a way of fighting Morgoth and taking out the unique Q in a couple of recent threads.

Also, the hockey stick is also a *HUGE* TO mechanic that can't be overlooked. Being able to teleport away a big baddie that can't get LOS on you while you have LOS on it, is really a gaming changing/ breaking mechanic.

Actually, thinking more about it, I think using the hockey stick and TO is a core part of the game.
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Old November 3, 2016, 02:47   #272
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Originally Posted by Scraper View Post
Also, the hockey stick is also a *HUGE* TO mechanic that can't be overlooked. Being able to teleport away a big baddie that can't get LOS on you while you have LOS on it, is really a gaming changing/ breaking mechanic.
You can always TO a monster on the turn that it steps into view. As long as it's not faster than you are, this is perfectly safe.
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Old November 3, 2016, 02:48   #273
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Originally Posted by Sky View Post
the what stick?
The hockey stick is the term that has been coined here. It is a bit like the knight move in chess or go. It is where the monster is positioned two squares ahead and one square to the left or right. With the way vision works in the game, @ can see the monster and thus target it, but the monster cannot see nor target @.
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Old November 3, 2016, 03:30   #274
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Originally Posted by Scraper View Post
Actually, thinking more about it, I think using the hockey stick and TO is a core part of the game.
Hockey stick / knight's move, TO is absolutely core. You can NOT power dive any low HP character/class combo without it. Progress would slow to a crawl and would make the game a painstaking and boring chore of tunneling and counting spaces to make sure you get the first move to TO. Vaults which are exciting and a bit risky would become out of the question.

Power diving a gnome mage is quite exciting today, with all the hockey stick/TO features in there. Any single wrong move can bring death. Without it, basically no monster with a distance attack can ever be approached until near the endgame when CON is maxed.

Unless of course there is a "mini mart" on every level that sells unlimited !Healing. (but this doesn't help low HP chars power diving)

Is using targeted ball spells area effect also considered LoS abuse by those who don't like hockey stick? How many fun, tactics-promoting mechanics are going to be removed until there's nothing left but "show down at the OK coral"? Some players *like* the indirect, "if I prepare an arena ahead of time, you don't get a shot at me" tactics they allow.

Unless of course you make TO a ball effect, so it can be launched around corners with proper targeting.

Last edited by Bogatyr; November 3, 2016 at 03:43.
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Old November 3, 2016, 03:45   #275
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Like I said, I have faith that if we remove it, you'll find some other way to accomplish your goals. Asymmetric LOS is stupid. Let's find or add more interesting ways to demonstrate system mastery, hm?
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Old November 3, 2016, 04:28   #276
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Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
Hockey stick / knight's move, TO is absolutely core. You can NOT power dive any low HP character/class combo without it.
Don't be silly. Diving is a mindset. Every class is divable without abusing LOS asymmetry.

If it turns out the occasional vault is too tough for your low HP character to breach, THAT IS A GOOD THING. You detect the arkenstone, but if you breach you will die. Do you have the restraint to walk away? Does it really pain you to do so? Are you tempted to take an unforgivable 10% risk to get in? Maybe you *should* take a 10% risk to get in. Dealing with issues such as these is when you are starting to get at the best of what angband has to offer.
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Old November 3, 2016, 14:01   #277
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Like I said, I have faith that if we remove it, you'll find some other way to accomplish your goals. Asymmetric LOS is stupid. Let's find or add more interesting ways to demonstrate system mastery, hm?
I don't agree. Laying in wait, prepared, to attack something just coming around the corner, the one preparing the ambush has the definite upper hand, including typically getting in the first shot.

At the very least, in a knight's move scenario, the one farther from the corner should get first attack, perhaps with a strong attack/damage bonus, and the response from the one being ambushed should be below normal attack potential. The current asymmetric LOS where the ambushed one gets no attack approximates such a dynamic.

Hockey stick down a diagonal "corridor", however, I agree, is ridiculous. Doesn't mean I don't use it, though. With uniques dealing out 500hp/round, power diving mages have no other way to deal with them.
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Old November 3, 2016, 14:32   #278
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Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
I don't agree. Laying in wait, prepared, to attack something just coming around the corner, the one preparing the ambush has the definite upper hand, including typically getting in the first shot.
And this hasn't changed. All you do is go from hitting them here:
Code:
#g####
#..@..
######
to hitting them here:
Code:
#.####
#.g@..
######
Either way, so long as they aren't faster than you, you get the first action, and a completely risk-free TO.
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Old November 3, 2016, 15:57   #279
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
And this hasn't changed. All you do is go from hitting them here:
Code:
#g####
#..@..
######
to hitting them here:
Code:
#.####
#.g@..
######
Either way, so long as they aren't faster than you, you get the first action, and a completely risk-free TO.
Although the first instance gives you one chance at a fail, while the second punishes that failure instantly.
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Old November 3, 2016, 16:03   #280
krazyhades
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
And this hasn't changed. All you do is go from hitting them here:
Code:
#g####
#..@..
######
to hitting them here:
Code:
#.####
#.g@..
######
Either way, so long as they aren't faster than you, you get the first action, and a completely risk-free TO.
That's an enormous difference. The first one lets you fail once your activation or cast (or in the case of some variants like poscheng, lets the monster resist teleportation and approach) or get in a shot, and you still get another turn to attack, TO, teleport yourself, whatever, without the monster doing anything to you.

I do not think it's a good thing for the game, but as long as it exists, abusing it maximally is pretty big (edit: as is knowing to not stand where monsters can do the same to you). Knowing you have this window for a free move is enormously important and affects at least a few turns in a lot of combats.

Last edited by krazyhades; November 3, 2016 at 18:45.
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