Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 11, 2016, 10:32   #81
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 8,071
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
OK, it's clear to me yet again why I'm leaving combat system changes to last.

Clearly all that I need to do is design a combat system which combines all the best aspects of V, O, v4 and Sil combat (and I nearly forgot Ey - how could I?) which removes all the properties which annoy anyone, is simple to explain, and actually makes the game play exactly as it currently does, only better in some indefinable way.

Of course once I do this, someone will point out that their Kobold Mage wielding Narthanc and a Ring of Damage (+11) used to be able to kill an Uruk in three rounds, and now it's taking four or even five. The game has been ruined and it should be reverted back to 2.6.2 with the named slime molds patch.

I feel better now
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 14:26   #82
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
OK, it's clear to me yet again why I'm leaving combat system changes to last.
I don't think you need to make a perfect system up front. But I do think we need to know where we're headed towards for good design decisions as far as monsters and gear are concerned. A rough framework choice is what I'm asking for.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 15:05   #83
Bogatyr
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 448
Bogatyr is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Random silly idea: reduce all monster damage values by a factor of 5, but make all player spells that aren't immediate offensive actions take 5 turns to go off. Want to phase door? Cast it 5 turns in advance. One turn from death? You should've drunk a healing potion five turns ago.
Mage non-attack escapes are in fact part of their "offense". If you do this, then you must make warriors swing 5 turns in advance, too, which would be pretty ridiculous.
Bogatyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 15:30   #84
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,020
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fph View Post
I don't see an easy way to account for speed in this framework, though. Both movement speed and attack speed, if you plan to split them.
The only way speed currently touches on turns is that it dictates how much energy you get per game turn. You still use 100 energy for all turns, except for edge cases like not using all of your blows in one round, or having a bow of extra shots.

If I were to split movement speed from combat speed, though, then I think I'd do it by having your "movement speed modifier" divide the amount of energy it takes to move one tile. So a +1 mod means you move twice as fast (it takes half the time to move one tile), +2 three times as fast, etc. That might be too powerful, I don't know, but it's a nice, simple system, and it should be easy to implement without ripping out the existing speed system (just make movement take less energy).

Combat speed can just stay with the "how many blows do you get in one round?" system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogaytr
Mage non-attack escapes are in fact part of their "offense". If you do this, then you must make warriors swing 5 turns in advance, too, which would be pretty ridiculous.
You laugh, but I'm actually considering trying to build a game that basically works something like this. It'll probably never happen, considering my track record with game development, but I'm having fun thinking about it at least. Have you ever played Frozen Synapse?
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 15:35   #85
PowerDiver
Prophet
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,712
PowerDiver is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fph View Post
I don't see an easy way to account for speed in this framework, though. Both movement speed and attack speed, if you plan to split them.
This combat works perfectly with speed in a turn-based game. You accumulate energy according to your speed, and when you get 100+ energy you spend 100 energy doing something, which should include 1 round of attacks. That's how the entire rest of the game works. The only difference with the melee attack system is in charging less than 100 energy if you have multiple blows, and achieve a kill before the last blow. I think this is an improvement worth the inconsistency, especially as I wanted other actions such as wield and unwield to take less than 100 energy [50 each in my code].
PowerDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 17:12   #86
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,679
Estie is on a distinguished road
What exactly are you hoping to achieve by splitting the speeds ? Currently, the stable endgame setup most meleers end up with a speed boots, speed ring and damage ring. If you split speed, maybe it will be something like speed boots, speed ring and attack speed ring instead of damage ring, but you still end up playing the same game.
There are already enough different modifiers to have overflow; wouldnt it be more interesting to try to get away from that stable sink everyone ends up with, by distributing the mods differently over the item types, than adding new ones with the only effect being to change the shape of the sink ?

Currently speed +10 is the most important property and tops everything else; but from 10 -> 20, you already have competition, from stats and even damage alternatives. Also, recent changes (including Fizzix´s patch to make speed values dependant on dlvl) mean you dont normally get +10 speed in one swoop, usually you start with less from your first items. So, by splitting speed, you dont even gain more relevant choices in the mid game.

What am I missing ? To me, it seems splitting speeds is just like pouring water into the soup. More, but not better.
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 17:21   #87
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,020
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
What exactly are you hoping to achieve by splitting the speeds ?
The hope is to bring some degree of balance to the different modifiers in the game. Speed is, by a gigantic margin, the most important modifier the player can have on a piece of gear. It remains as such until you hit +20 at least and is still pretty competitive above that. It's such that there's absolutely no question that you wear every piece of speed gear you can until you start hitting those higher levels.

This distorts game balance badly and removes choice from the player. It's certainly nice to get a new speed item and suddenly be much more powerful than you used to be, but it'd also be nice if speed wasn't such a hugely dominant part of the "equipment equation".

I think it's at least worth examining, even if we ultimately decide it's not worth implementing in the "final version".

Also, remember, there are no bad ideas when brainstorming! You too, Bogatyr, don't think I didn't notice when you poo-poo'd my 5-turns idea!
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 17:38   #88
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,679
Estie is on a distinguished road
I was just wondering if I am missing something. Apparently I am not
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 17:41   #89
TJS
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 473
TJS is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
The hope is to bring some degree of balance to the different modifiers in the game. Speed is, by a gigantic margin, the most important modifier the player can have on a piece of gear. It remains as such until you hit +20 at least and is still pretty competitive above that.
This is true, but I don't think that making it more complex and unintuitive by splitting up the speeds is the answer.

But yes speed is ludicrously overpowered. Two possible solutions I can think of, one is make monsters either normal speed or fast and give the player access to temporary speed boosts only.

Or less controversial just reduce the speed boosts on equipment to smooth out the bumps in speed increases. Also reduce the need to have +20/30 to even survive instakill monsters.
TJS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11, 2016, 19:03   #90
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,664
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
"Smoothing things out" turns out you be a mistake, usually. The bumps make the game both more challenging and more exciting. Good gameplay requires imperfect balance.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Am I the only one missing *angband Let's plays? TheQuest Variants 11 June 1, 2016 15:58
[3.5-dev] I know nobody plays with tiles but... PowerWyrm Vanilla 1 April 24, 2013 12:16
[Un, others] Eddie Grove patch andrewdoull Variants 14 September 6, 2008 08:07


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.