Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 2, 2010, 13:59   #11
dos350
Knight
 
dos350's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: nimbin, australia
Posts: 541
dos350 is on a distinguished road
ee

eek hi i have been playing angband for not long at all and i have never won but i think that this is serious changes ----~~~~~ please to not do it!

destruct is must
auto id is not need

please to lmk
dos350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 14:04   #12
Estie
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,679
Estie is on a distinguished road
[QUOTE=buzzkill;43860]Instadeaths are an inherently part of Angband and most any RL. Removing or minimizing them just seems wrong.



TO is a luxury, cheap and exploitable. <>


How do you exploit TO ?
Estie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 14:14   #13
Bandobras
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 725
Bandobras is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Instadeaths are an inherently part of Angband and most any RL. Removing or minimizing them just seems wrong.
I hope this is a misunderstanding. I think you mean instant death as a consequence of taking a significant risk, while others mean random instant deaths, not related to taking risks or avoiding risks. An extreme manifestation of randomness in a game. Agreed, Dungeon Crawl has these and some more games, but I don't think it's universal for roguelikes and unintentional in some that have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
but I've got no real desire to play V (and rarely do), and that bothers me a little, because I don't think that the problem is with me.
Just to clarify: did you have that desire before V started being tampered with by the current maintainers?
Bandobras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 14:58   #14
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Some thoughts on the OP.

instant ID at clevel 40 is highly recommended. I would even propose an ID on walkover or ID everything in LOS. But not before clevel 40. instant pseudo at clevel 20 is a bad idea. ewert's pseudo seemed to work pretty well.

As far as making the game harder:

I've long been a proponent of reducing destruction's effectiveness. Mainly by allowing monsters to save and if they do, teleporting them (as in TO) or moving them directly outside the destruction zone. This keeps destruction as an escape, a turn buying maneuver. But it doesn't make the level completely safe anymore. Destruction should also remove artifacts. I hate that it doesn't.

If TO changes, summoning needs to change also. Summon hi_dragon is common enough that a player needs a common counter. Right now that's TO. Reducing TO is possible. But for that to be done Tele-self needs to be a lot safer or summoning needs to be weakened. Making tele-self safer actually means that hound packs need to be about 1/3 the size that they currently are. The game then turns into teleport away and lure monsters away, which may be more fun than teleport monsters away and loot the place. I do know that the game has more interesting decisions before coming across -TO and _destruct (change done by reducing monster pack size to 1/3 what it currently is, maybe Z specific, removing -TO rods and making wands as rare as annihilation. adding -teleport and giving it an easy activation.)

DaJ allowed monsters to blink even if they were out of LoS. I like this also.

I also agree with Timo in that there needs to be greater variation on dungeon levels. Monsters and items in certain rooms (like the center of cross rooms) should be further out of depth than they currently are. There already is some of this in V since my medium vault changes are there.

Lastly, I don't understand buzzkill's complaint, or rather, I think I understand it but I don't think of it as bad. Angband development seems to me a lot closer to say, evolution, than to intelligent design. I don't think this is a bad thing. Moving towards a specific goal is impossible when no one can agree on what that goal should be. If anything threads like this are focused on creating a clearer goal. Namely, making the game more difficult.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 15:22   #15
Nomad
Knight
 
Nomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 958
Nomad is on a distinguished road
As somebody who tends to descend quite steadily, exploring most levels and taking on almost everything that's not going to result in insta-death, I actually find the difficulty level quite well-balanced. I think the issue is lack of association between risk and reward: it's too easy for experienced divers to collect high-quality gear without being forced to take on challenging battles to get it. "Evade anything tough until you've got the perfect kit to make killing it easy" is just as rewarding a play style as slogging it out in epic battles with monsters you can only just handle.

So, two suggestions I would make would be:

1. Restrict artefact generation so they're only ever found in vaults or dropped by uniques, never just lying on the floor or dropped by random monsters.

2. Get rid of wands and spells of teleport other, but leave the rods. That way, you still have it as a tool, but you're restricted to a limited number of shots at a time so you can't wade in and clear an entire vault with it.
Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 15:23   #16
TJS
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 473
TJS is on a distinguished road
Here are my suggestions:

Equipment is too easy to come by - make them rarer, especially egos and artifacts.

There are too many useful things available in the shops. I'd give them a limited amount of stock and when they're gone that's it, you'll have to find anything else yourself.

Detection and avoidance is too easy. Make any detected monsters appear as the letter only so you aren't sure what it is. Same with ESP (once you've seen a monster though then you know what it is until you leave the level). Keep infravision as it meaning it will remain useful after ESP is found.

Get rid of preserve mode. If you see the palantir in a vault and it is being guarded by Huan then you need to either take a risk or lose it forever.

Make *Destruct* remove artifacts as well as everything else.

Teleport other only removes the first monster it hits who has a chance to resist it.

Banishment and mass banishment only affects monsters in line of sight.

I'd also like to see monsters using spells on each other. You have this to a certain extent with monsters that haste others in line of sight, but it would be good to take it further with monsters healing and cloning powerful monsters.
TJS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 15:41   #17
ewert
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 525
ewert is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I've long been a proponent of reducing destruction's effectiveness. Mainly by allowing monsters to save and if they do, teleporting them (as in TO) or moving them directly outside the destruction zone. This keeps destruction as an escape, a turn buying maneuver. But it doesn't make the level completely safe anymore. Destruction should also remove artifacts. I hate that it doesn't.
This sounds really, really good to me. TO nonuniques, push uniques with *destr*. Heck, don't even give a save, and I mean that totally remove the "remove monster" part of *destr*. =) Also yeah, remove artifacts.

REALLY good sounding to me. Okay, I have to confess, I think lately I don't use even *destr* really ... still carry it usually, but use? ... Can't remember using it at all with my last warrior winner, except for messing up the terrain pre-Morgoth fight.
ewert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 16:02   #18
fbas
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 59
fbas is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
Here are my suggestions:

Equipment is too easy to come by - make them rarer, especially egos and artifacts.

There are too many useful things available in the shops. I'd give them a limited amount of stock and when they're gone that's it, you'll have to find anything else yourself.

...

Get rid of preserve mode. If you see the palantir in a vault and it is being guarded by Huan then you need to either take a risk or lose it forever.

I like the idea of risk for valuable things. I think high valued artifacts should come with a high chance of being protected or near high powered monsters rather than random drops or laying on the ground. (pardon my ignorance if this is partly already true and that high level creatures carry better drops, rather than it being just depth related).

but I disagree a little with the shops carrying too much good stuff. I find that the shops almost never have anything I want (other than increase stat potions, which are too easy to beef up on.. I used to play moria back in the day and it seemed a lot harder then to get most stats over 18). and especially at certain levels, my millions are basically worthless, which is odd since I spend some good time hauling stuff to the surface to build my bankroll.. feels like I go from broke and wanting stuff to filthy rich and not having anything to buy, really quickly. I wouldn't want there to be tons of good stuff to buy, which would make it a money game more than a dungeon game, but would like to see, on rare occassions, some totally awesome and totally overpriced artifact in the black market.

I don't know much about or care about banish and destruct scrolls since I never use them. I'm ok with things being in the game like that because I can ignore them and play at the difficulty level that I desire.

---

I think someone hinted at it above, but I would rather see changes in vanilla that improve game play mechanics and menus rather than changing content. there's a slight schism between some things being available in the windowed menu and other things being accessed through in-game keystroke-driven menus ~ and =.

aside from the high volume and ease of finding valuable things, I'm fine with keeping the content much the same, while improving interface, squelch layout and options, maybe some macro and keymap management tools to simplify or explain better, and maybe expanding squelch and macro language for things like conditionals (if wisdom < max_wisdom, don't squelch restorewisdom, gain wisdom potion).

I'm kind of a passing player (though I'll definitely play more vanilla), though, so I don't expect changes to appease me. I'm probably moving onto tomenet for a bit next, but thought I'd leave some of my impressions.
fbas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 16:09   #19
AnonymousHero
Veteran
 
AnonymousHero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,372
AnonymousHero is on a distinguished road
Add a monster spell "blink towards" -- a sort of semi-directed blink. It makes blinking monsters much more interesting/dangerous in O and FA.
AnonymousHero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2, 2010, 16:24   #20
NotMorgoth
Adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 215
NotMorgoth is on a distinguished road
On the TO front, how about an idea 'borrowed' from Dungeon Crawl: TO (and possibly other teleport effects) take some time to kick in - not as long as recall but a few turns? So you would have to think more about whether you could safely use it if the monster would get a move before you could get out of LOS.
NotMorgoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
YASD in the making PowerDiver AAR 10 July 6, 2010 07:21
Making the game harder Derakon Vanilla 166 June 24, 2010 19:45
Winner in the making? Nero AAR 17 May 22, 2010 22:44
TortoiseSVN - doing diffs and making patches PaulBlay Idle chatter 0 February 22, 2009 20:09
Light weapons should be harder to enchant to-dam, heavy ones to-hit ekolis Vanilla 11 July 15, 2007 00:07


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.