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Old December 2, 2010, 16:33   #21
Derakon
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The hardest games of Angband I play are the ones where good gear is scarce but I push on anyway. That pushes me outside my comfort zone, gets me into trouble more often, and forces me to take risks that, with better gear, wouldn't be anywhere near as dangerous.

Of course, you can't simply reduce the rate at which good gear drops; then people can simply scum levels until they get better gear. Ideally the game should encourage (without enforcing) a steady rate of descent instead, so the player can feel like they're continually making progress.

So here's one possible idea: the first time the player enters a new dungeon level, it should be biased to be more high-stakes. Nastier monsters, generated awake, but with better loot. Greater odds of uniques, vaults, and pits, too. Repeats of the same dungeon level wouldn't be as interesting; thus the fast way to improve yourself is to clear each level once. Then we just have to scale normal item drops so that there's a clear difference between the first-visit level and the repeat-visit levels. You can still scum the same dungeon level for more gear, but it should be blatantly obvious to the player that this isn't as effective as diving. Similarly, you can still bail on a level that's gotten dangerous, but it won't be your first choice whenever you get into trouble.

This isn't to say that every first-visit dungeon level should have useful gear/consumables on it. Just that they should be far more likely to than repeat-visit levels. Say, twice as many monsters, half of which (and all uniques of which) are generated awake, plus ten times as many floor items and a doubled vault/pit chance.
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Old December 2, 2010, 16:34   #22
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[QUOTE=Estie;43866]
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Instadeaths are an inherently part of Angband and most any RL. Removing or minimizing them just seems wrong.
personally I don't like deaths, especially insta-deaths in most video games. I'd prefer that the most a single attack could do is bring you within inches of your life (put you at 0, but alive).
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Old December 2, 2010, 16:37   #23
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but I disagree a little with the shops carrying too much good stuff.
Actually I agree with you about the really good stuff not being available in shops. It might be nice to have a few really good items to save up for.

I was more referring to the unlimited amounts of ?phase, !CCW, !restore stat, ammo, ?enchant, magic and prayer books.

It would be good to use the shops a lot at the start of the game, but less as the game goes on and the shops run out of stuff.
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Old December 2, 2010, 16:42   #24
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Actually I agree with you about the really good stuff not being available in shops. It might be nice to have a few really good items to save up for.

I was more referring to the unlimited amounts of ?phase, !CCW, !restore stat, ammo, ?enchant, magic and prayer books.

It would be good to use the shops a lot at the start of the game, but less as the game goes on and the shops run out of stuff.
I could def agree with this, but then again someone can just scum around and kill turns until stores get stocked with what they want, so would you really change much in the game except pushing people to waste more time? I guess I don't have much of a solution for that. I'm more or less fine with restores and books being readily available, while making increase stats and maybe enchant more scarce. (enchant weapon and armor is also in spell books, as I found out playing a rogue).

But I would err on the side of not changing much unless there was some good consensus or brilliant idea of direction to take.
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Old December 2, 2010, 16:52   #25
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Mm, as far as shopping is concerned, the only items you really need to have to continue into the dungeon are a) Word of Recall, b) stat restores (in egregious situations), and c) spellbooks. If you add a service to restore stats, and change the town spellbooks to be indestructible but weigh 6 pounds each, then the only remaining item that the stores would have to refresh their stock on would be Word of Recall scrolls.

(I include stat restores because the player is occasionally subject to situations that make the game simply not fun to play until they can get their stats restored. It is generally not considered a fun challenge to play as a priest who got his WIS drained to 12 by a Lost Soul he couldn't combat effectively, for example. More usually, minor drains are not a serious hindrance and the player can simply deal until they naturally find a restoring item.)
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Old December 2, 2010, 16:53   #26
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Originally Posted by fbas View Post
I could def agree with this, but then again someone can just scum around and kill turns until stores get stocked with what they want, so would you really change much in the game except pushing people to waste more time? I guess I don't have much of a solution for that. I'm more or less fine with restores and books being readily available, while making increase stats and maybe enchant more scarce. (enchant weapon and armor is also in spell books, as I found out playing a rogue).

But I would err on the side of not changing much unless there was some good consensus or brilliant idea of direction to take.
If you eliminated shops restocking altogether then you wouldn't be tempted to wait for a restock. Also it would it more tactical when to buy items. If there is only one !restore strength then you might not use it up straight away if you were only drained one point of strength.

Without restocking you could sell stuff to the shops and buy it back later at a premium (including some nice egos and artifacts that you would otherwise not have any room for).
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Old December 2, 2010, 17:00   #27
Tiburon Silverflame
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I would LOVE to see indestructible spellbooks; I really dislike the notion that you have to carry a library around with you.
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Old December 2, 2010, 17:05   #28
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Mm, as far as shopping is concerned, the only items you really need to have to continue into the dungeon are a) Word of Recall, b) stat restores (in egregious situations), and c) spellbooks. If you add a service to restore stats, and change the town spellbooks to be indestructible but weigh 6 pounds each, then the only remaining item that the stores would have to refresh their stock on would be Word of Recall scrolls.

(I include stat restores because the player is occasionally subject to situations that make the game simply not fun to play until they can get their stats restored. It is generally not considered a fun challenge to play as a priest who got his WIS drained to 12 by a Lost Soul he couldn't combat effectively, for example. More usually, minor drains are not a serious hindrance and the player can simply deal until they naturally find a restoring item.)
If you knew exactly how many ?WoR were in the shops then you could plan your returns to town accordingly. It would be worth going out of your way to pick them up in the dungeon when they are running low.

The trouble with stat restoring is that if it is guaranteed in town then it all becomes a bit pointless. You just need to go through the hassle of recalling back to town. I think having a few in town, but once they've gone then that's it would help solve the Lost Soul problem, without making stat drain trivial for the whole game.
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Old December 2, 2010, 17:07   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Lastly, I don't understand buzzkill's complaint, or rather, I think I understand it but I don't think of it as bad. Angband development seems to me a lot closer to say, evolution, than to intelligent design. I don't think this is a bad thing. Moving towards a specific goal is impossible when no one can agree on what that goal should be. If anything threads like this are focused on creating a clearer goal. Namely, making the game more difficult.
Well said. Thank you for saving me from a rant.

Remember folks, nobody has to play nightlies. 3.1.2v2 is a perfectly decent game, as is 3.1.1 and 3.0.9b and 3.0.6 and so on back to frog-knows. They're all at rephial.org.
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Old December 2, 2010, 17:16   #30
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I remember Timo saying that the occasional instadeath, to a massively OOD monster, is actually part of the excitement of the game. But a lot of people don't agree with that, and think that instadeaths are inherently wrong.
That's not quite a point of my post. unavoidable instant death is a bad thing. Instant death itself is OK, as long as you can avoid it. Massively OOD monster that can kill you in single move is just something you need to be aware of to be able to avoid, that's all. If this instant death happens before you can prepare yourself to meet those monsters, then it is early death and doesn't matter much. A bit like teleporting into room with two groups of plasma hounds without sound resistance. RIP.
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