Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 1, 2010, 09:59   #1
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
So how are we feeling about "junk"?

Way back in the 3.0 series, there was a consensus that the game generated "Too Much Junk" - both real junk (items with no purpose) and relative junk (items obsolete by the time they dropped). So since 3.1.x a lot of things have been done to address this:

1. All the utterly pointless items were removed (broken sticks, skulls, shards of pottery etc.). Apart from robbing some players of atmosphere, this had no effect on gameplay.

2. Fewer items were dropped, and more of those turned into "good" or "great" items - not so many daggers (+0,+0) at 4900'. This had two significant consequences: too many ego items and artifacts, and not enough consumables.

3. Lots of standarts were tweaked to make them more likely to drop at a depth where they are useful, and more likely to be useful when they drop. There have been fewer complaints about "junk artifacts", but otherwise little effect on the overall issue. Randarts should now drop with almost identical frequency to standarts, but both egos and artifacts may still be too common.

4. Consumable drops were completely overhauled, possibly making them a little too common. Not sure if this is still true in nightlies, or if it's about right.

So, any observations?
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 10:29   #2
TJS
Swordsman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 473
TJS is on a distinguished road
I've just been playing angband-r8d5f723f3e (from 25th Nov) with randarts.

I didn't find any randarts at all and only a sword of *slay demon* up to around level 45. After that I was swimming in randarts and found on average 2-3 per level I'd say after that. I'd make them a lot rarer.

I think that artifacts and egos should be just as likely on earlier levels, just of a lower quality to the deeper ones. The early levels are often the most difficult anyway. Also it is hard to get excited with a new game when you know you aren't going to see any artifacts, egos or vaults for ages. Just churning through orcs and resting all the time.

I think that weapons and equipment are generated far too often at deeper levels at the moment. Is there a power test to see how useful something is for the level it is generated that it needs to pass? So for example if an armour of resist acid is generated at level 98 it would fail the test and nothing would be generated at all (or at least have a far less likely chance of being generated).

I'm still wading through 10-20 pieces of equipment on each later level.

Unique drops weren't great. Sauron dropped a metal cap of light (+2) and a shield of resist lightning and nothing else.

The randarts are great fun by the way. I particularly like the changes to Dragon Scale Mail as well which actually make them exciting when you find them rather than junk (I wore a Balance DSM or Permanence for a lot of the game). I'm finding the game much more fun, although I'd say it is a bit on the easy side now.
TJS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 14:51   #3
ewert
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 525
ewert is on a distinguished road
Now I'm not playing the master branch nightly, so dunno about the randart changes at the moment.

Overall, from quite a few winners after consumable changes, I feel:
A minor downtune of some high end consumables (10-20%) like the top healing potions, *destr* and ?banishes (both) could be in order. Or people could change their habits into not JUST hoarding them, but actually tackling the tough uniques at relevant levels (so the consumables get consumed pre last two fights too).

Minor uptune maybe with utility rods concomitant, again not much (the RNG plays tricks), and this with a very big "maybe".

I feel weapons/armor/ammo is okay now. You find stuff, but are not swimming in it. Auto-id at clvl40 makes it mostly moot to reduce it in iVanilla, you'd only reduce the chances of getting the top3 weapons with a good ego (which takes time still, IMHO quite spot-on amount of time unless veryvery lucky) or killer ammo.

Early levels I think I'm way too disconnected with "casual" or new-ish players to really comment on it. Myself I feel okay about it, only change would be to put stat changes back to +-10 after 18, not the current random one which results in getting lots (~30) for first past 18 stat (swap) potion, giving a too big boost if you find a couple early enough.

All in all, maybe most important change IMHO would be to slightly decrease the top 5 end game consumables, *healing*, life, banish/mass banish and *destr*. Rune is rare enough.
ewert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 15:05   #4
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
1. All the utterly pointless items were removed (broken sticks, skulls, shards of pottery etc.). Apart from robbing some players of atmosphere, this had no effect on gameplay.
I think this should be handled with squelch. I thought junk items should help you tell what monsters are nearby, but others seemed to think terrain should be used for this instead, so I've worked on that with minimal success so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
2. Fewer items were dropped, and more of those turned into "good" or "great" items - not so many daggers (+0,+0) at 4900'. This had two significant consequences: too many ego items and artifacts, and not enough consumables.
Equipment drops are way too low on the first 20-30 levels. At the higher levels they become too common, mostly because drop_good monsters cannot drop anything except for equipment.

This is the biggest junk problem currently in the game. Ewert's patch that allows ID on pickup after clevel 40 is strongly recommended. I haven't heard much talk about this, and I may be the only person to play test it, but I liked it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
3. Lots of standarts were tweaked to make them more likely to drop at a depth where they are useful, and more likely to be useful when they drop. There have been fewer complaints about "junk artifacts", but otherwise little effect on the overall issue. Randarts should now drop with almost identical frequency to standarts, but both egos and artifacts may still be too common.
I've been keeping track in recent games where my artifacts come from. I generally find about 50% more artifacts from normal monsters than uniques. This is not terrible at all, but I wouldn't mind the artifact creation chance to be boosted if the dropping monster is a unique (or penalized if it's not).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
4. Consumable drops were completely overhauled, possibly making them a little too common. Not sure if this is still true in nightlies, or if it's about right.
!Life is still extremely rare. Stat gain seem about right. I still think the +1/-1 potions are too common or show up too early. Seeker arrows/bolts may be too common, but I'd rather see branding spells be removed than mucking with them. !Healing and !rmana are more common it seems. But I feel they should be. Food and mushrooms are too rare. Bolt and ball wands/rods have too small a window of usefulness, unless I find one early they're almost always squelched immediately (this could just be a play style thing though). -detection seems reasonably common now (I feel it should be as common as PB6). -healing needs a slower recharge time and an easier activation level to be useful. -restoration is almost never of any use. -curing and _curing are still completely useless. That's about it for now.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 15:34   #5
d_m
Angband Devteam member
 
d_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Age: 39
Posts: 1,516
d_m is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Ewert's patch that allows ID on pickup after clevel 40 is strongly recommended. I haven't heard much talk about this, and I may be the only person to play test it, but I liked it.
Takkaria was also talking about something like this awhile ago on IRC. I like the idea.

If you give me a patch I will test it out and then put it into staging if I can get other devs to agree.
__________________
linux->xterm->screen->pmacs
d_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 16:19   #6
bulian
Adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 162
bulian is on a distinguished road
Quote:
1. All the utterly pointless items were removed (broken sticks, skulls, shards of pottery etc.). Apart from robbing some players of atmosphere, this had no effect on gameplay.
I never saw this but don't think I'm missing anything either.

Quote:
2. Fewer items were dropped, and more of those turned into "good" or "great" items - not so many daggers (+0,+0) at 4900'. This had two significant consequences: too many ego items and artifacts, and not enough consumables.

3. Lots of standarts were tweaked to make them more likely to drop at a depth where they are useful, and more likely to be useful when they drop. There have been fewer complaints about "junk artifacts", but otherwise little effect on the overall issue. Randarts should now drop with almost identical frequency to standarts, but both egos and artifacts may still be too common.
I only played one game with the nightlies using randarts, but my favorite macro is still k-ay. Equipment at lower levels is a little too uncommon and at higher levels still pretty common. Identify on pickup would be a nice feature.

Quote:
4. Consumable drops were completely overhauled, possibly making them a little too common. Not sure if this is still true in nightlies, or if it's about right.
With r2041, !rmana seems too common - mages or priests shouldn't end the game with >20 leftover. ?Rune - if I find more than one per game I'm amazed, so most of the time I leave these on the ground. This could be bumped up. !healing/*HEALING* - a little too common, !Life a little too rare. If !Life were eliminated I wouldn't miss it. ?Banish - about right. ?MassBanish - a slight increase would be welcomed.

I don't know if rods fall in the consumable category, but these don't seem quite right. Most rods except for detect XX ones and identify aren't worth a slot. Reducing the variety of attack rods and increasing the frequency of what is left might help. Rods of mapping are too rare or too deep.

Edit: A clarification: I would support ID on pickup of equipment but not consumables.

Last edited by bulian; December 1, 2010 at 16:31.
bulian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 16:21   #7
Lord Fell
Apprentice
 
Lord Fell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 89
Lord Fell is on a distinguished road
Re: Junk Items (s: which is a fragment of skeleton vs. s: which is a monster that is a skeleton for example) and Terrain... I think that making junk occasionally pop as a terrain note is "better" simply because of Squelch. I mean, you're not going to pick up and carry pottery or bones around, so it will get squelched by everyone. However, special floor squares that pop up with "there is dried blood here" or "most of a skull grins at you from the floor" messages brings back that flavour missing from newer versions.


re:Auto-ID at level 40... I assume that the reason for this is that by the time any race/class combination is level40, getting items ID is a trivial thing; access to spells or devices that cast Identify is guaranteed by this point (and long before). I think though, that this slightly bypasses the Inventory Management aspect of the game. If you're a class that doesn't get the spell, you have to have staffs, rods, or scrolls... this frees up an inventory slot. Also, if you get some item drops, but need to escape because you've got a stream of dragons descending on you, this gives you "free rounds" to decide which ones to take (assuming you can't take everything).
Lord Fell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 16:29   #8
fbas
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 59
fbas is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Fell View Post
Re: Junk Items (s: which is a fragment of skeleton vs. s: which is a monster that is a skeleton for example) and Terrain... I think that making junk occasionally pop as a terrain note is "better" simply because of Squelch. I mean, you're not going to pick up and carry pottery or bones around, so it will get squelched by everyone. However, special floor squares that pop up with "there is dried blood here" or "most of a skull grins at you from the floor" messages brings back that flavour missing from newer versions.


re:Auto-ID at level 40... I assume that the reason for this is that by the time any race/class combination is level40, getting items ID is a trivial thing; access to spells or devices that cast Identify is guaranteed by this point (and long before). I think though, that this slightly bypasses the Inventory Management aspect of the game. If you're a class that doesn't get the spell, you have to have staffs, rods, or scrolls... this frees up an inventory slot. Also, if you get some item drops, but need to escape because you've got a stream of dragons descending on you, this gives you "free rounds" to decide which ones to take (assuming you can't take everything).
I recall in Moria you would find inscriptions on the ground occasionally (presumably left by some other traveler?). You could leave inscriptions in the ground too. They fade after time so "FBAS WAS HERE" degrades to "F?AS ??S ??RE" and eventually disappears. I always assumed they indicated some creature was nearby.

Having not seen inscriptions in the dirt in Angband, I guess they were taken out. But this might fill the role of fragments as tell-tale signs of nearby monsters or activity.
fbas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 17:29   #9
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
I've just been playing angband-r8d5f723f3e (from 25th Nov) with randarts.

I didn't find any randarts at all and only a sword of *slay demon* up to around level 45. After that I was swimming in randarts and found on average 2-3 per level I'd say after that. I'd make them a lot rarer.
That's unlucky: the randart rarities were adjusted in b6ede4b which was built from the 27th. See https://github.com/angband/angband/commits/master for what's in nightlies.
Quote:
I think that weapons and equipment are generated far too often at deeper levels at the moment. Is there a power test to see how useful something is for the level it is generated that it needs to pass? So for example if an armour of resist acid is generated at level 98 it would fail the test and nothing would be generated at all (or at least have a far less likely chance of being generated).
Thank you - that's an excellent suggestion. I'll see what takk thinks, but I like the idea of wearables having to pass a certain power threshold before being considered "good" or "great" relative to dlev. Obviously we'd need to make sure that a simple cap of telepathy can still drop, but it should be easy enough to sort something out. An early idea for 3.3's nightlies, I think. Ticket #1080 is related so I've added a note to that.
Quote:
Unique drops weren't great. Sauron dropped a metal cap of light (+2) and a shield of resist lightning and nothing else.
... and of course, uniques drops could be configured to pass a target power rating (though we would of course then need to calculate power for non-wearables).
Quote:
The randarts are great fun by the way. I particularly like the changes to Dragon Scale Mail as well which actually make them exciting when you find them rather than junk (I wore a Balance DSM or Permanence for a lot of the game). I'm finding the game much more fun, although I'd say it is a bit on the easy side now.
Agreed. Glad you like the changes.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1, 2010, 17:31   #10
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
Takkaria was also talking about something like this awhile ago on IRC. I like the idea.

If you give me a patch I will test it out and then put it into staging if I can get other devs to agree.
http://trac.rephial.org/ticket/1094

(Yay - I'm the 4th person to pass 2000 posts!)
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Great" drops replaced by "good" drops in vaults: bug or feature? PowerWyrm Vanilla 14 February 27, 2010 15:54
Feature request: make "summon unique" do nothing when there are no uniques bron Vanilla 11 December 22, 2009 16:25
Feature request: change "Purification and Healing" prayer book. bron Vanilla 1 December 18, 2009 23:19
"repeat" Command just little bit "smarter" ClaytonAguiar Vanilla 8 June 17, 2009 15:01
Roguelike idea from "Lost Magic" DS game - Mr. @ teaches typing! ekolis Idle chatter 10 October 19, 2007 03:25


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.