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Old July 9, 2020, 17:34   #11
archolewa
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Originally Posted by licker View Post
Other games handle that by cool downs or diminishing returns. Of course there are cool downs on rods, and that's a weird mechanic to cheese onto potions, but if the (or a) goal of this was to remove potion spamming (which I kind of don't get the point of either, but whatever, I'll play along that it's a 'problem' that needed solving) then I would just suggest this is not a good solution because it simply adds an additional micromanage element which is so easily managed that it doesn't add any actual depth to game play.
I don't really view gorging as a means of *removing* potion spamming. More to give potion spamming a trade-off. So you have to give some thought to it. Maybe not a lot of thought, but some.
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Old July 9, 2020, 17:41   #12
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Fair enough.

I still maintain that it is only an issue when you don't understand the mechanic. Once you understand it? No longer an issue.

Also, at what point does potion spamming stop being something characters do? For me that happens pretty quickly, because at some point you don't bother with CLW, and then you don't bother with CSW, and then CCW is basically only for condition control, or you might drink a couple, not dozens.

Who is carrying 40 CLWs anyway?
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Old July 9, 2020, 18:04   #13
archolewa
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Depends on the class. I relied on them pretty heavily for quite a while for my recent Blackguard to cut down on how much time I spent resting (both because of her poor stealth, and because she loses spell points when not in combat). Most classes I could get away with being 70% satiated before going into the dungeon. With her, I needed to be like 50 or 60% satiated before going down.
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Old July 9, 2020, 18:19   #14
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Originally Posted by archolewa View Post
Depends on the class. I relied on them pretty heavily for quite a while for my recent Blackguard to cut down on how much time I spent resting (both because of her poor stealth, and because she loses spell points when not in combat). Most classes I could get away with being 70% satiated before going into the dungeon. With her, I needed to be like 50 or 60% satiated before going down.
So even in this case, was it an interesting mechanic to manage or just something you had to micromanage?

I dunno really though, even without the penalty, food is just a mechanic I never really got. It's only kind of meaningful for young characters, but there's no real cost to it, it doesn't impact your economy, it sometimes kills you if you're super unlucky or really dumb (like drinking salt water without WoR or any food or something...). Is the supposed gain to immersion really worth the hassle of something that has no cost and serves no in game benefit?
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Old July 9, 2020, 18:37   #15
archolewa
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I found it somewhat interesting. The lower my satiation when I went down to the dungeon, the likelier it was that I'd have to abandon a level prematurely because I got hungry (or take up a precious inventory slot with some food). The higher my satiation, the likelier it was I was going to be gorged at an inopportune moment. Balancing that was moderately interesting, but on the whole it wasn't a big part of the game by any means. It didn't bother me, but I can see how it would bother other people.

That being said, if the choice was between "making food more interesting" and "removing it entirely" I'd probably lean towards "remove entirely." I just don't see how you make it interesting in a game with infinite resources like Angband. I mean, I guess food could give you buffs, but we already have potions, scrolls and mushrooms for that (and honestly I mostly ignore mushrooms).
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Old July 9, 2020, 21:11   #16
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Why do we bother with things like confusion and blindness preventing the player from reading the infinite supply and incredibly cheap Phase Door scrolls? Let's just remove them from the game and map the p key to an innate Phase ability that every character has.
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Old July 9, 2020, 21:48   #17
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Originally Posted by Monk View Post
What about elevensies?
I suggest that Hobbits have an innate ability to resist gorging. Let them eat second breakfast, elevensies and afternoon tea to their hearts' content.
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Old July 9, 2020, 22:42   #18
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Food can be more relevant in iron man games.
Otherwise I also don't bother with it much (or better to say "not at all").
I don't know how it could be made more interesting... it if was more rare and some of it had race dependent behaviour? Like half orc can't eat elven bread (or eating it would mean salt water effect with x% chance or drain str/con with y% etc).
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Old July 9, 2020, 22:57   #19
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Originally Posted by archolewa View Post
I found it somewhat interesting. The lower my satiation when I went down to the dungeon, the likelier it was that I'd have to abandon a level prematurely because I got hungry (or take up a precious inventory slot with some food). The higher my satiation, the likelier it was I was going to be gorged at an inopportune moment. Balancing that was moderately interesting, but on the whole it wasn't a big part of the game by any means. It didn't bother me, but I can see how it would bother other people.

That being said, if the choice was between "making food more interesting" and "removing it entirely" I'd probably lean towards "remove entirely." I just don't see how you make it interesting in a game with infinite resources like Angband. I mean, I guess food could give you buffs, but we already have potions, scrolls and mushrooms for that (and honestly I mostly ignore mushrooms).
Food isn't a wasted slot though, unless you don't have any empty slots when you go into the dungeon.

Sure, you technically have some in a slot, but as soon as you need a free slot to carry whatever you are bringing out with you, you just drop it. At least that's what I do. But I also play with no selling, and frankly, I never care about carrying anything other than what I can use immediately (or what I'm stocking for deeper levels).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bad argument
Why do we bother with things like confusion and blindness preventing the player from reading the infinite supply and incredibly cheap Phase Door scrolls? Let's just remove them from the game and map the p key to an innate Phase ability that every character has.
Fine. Give me a resist food ego item so that I never starve and we can call it the same thing. Oh, but slow digestion? Nope, not the same at all. Otherwise you might enjoy playing some kind of hunger simulator game, I don't know why a hunger mini game which has no impact on anything else in the game (once you understand it) is anything anyone wants, but if pointless micromanagement is your thing then fair enough.
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Old July 10, 2020, 03:11   #20
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Originally Posted by licker View Post
What is the reason why this change to food was made?

It's one of the things I find most irritating about the game now. I'd be happier to just remove food entirely honestly because it always feels incredibly pointless to me, but at least in older versions you just carried a pile of sat hunger (or used the spell) and didn't really care about it.

I'm guessing it was to actually make food items have 'value' but frankly, the better solution would have been to just remove a mechanic that's only there to be annoying. (my opinion of course)
The change was made because food had become silly - every class except warriors had a Satisfy Hunger spell, so it was just another inventory tax on warriors. On the other hand, there was a certain amount of support for keeping food in the game for flavor (!) reasons, and because even in this vestigial form it occasionally led to interesting gameplay decisions.

So the current system was developed (with considerable player input) and implemented. It's probably worth listing the main features of it:
  • Full status (90% fed and above) slows the player by one point of speed for each 1%;
  • Hungry status (and weak, etc) has progressive effects the hungrier the player gets - worse to-hit, to-dam, device skill, disarm skill, and so on;
  • Regeneration is improved the better fed the player is;
  • Only a small number of classes get hunger removal spells, which only feed the player to 50%;
  • There are more interesting types of food available, some of which have secondary effects;
  • Big healing potions no longer have food value.

I'm not going to provide a rehash of the entire debate; just look at the list of forum threads and aim for the longer ones
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